4.85mm X 44, 49 British


#1

What is the correct term for these 2 rounds.

I have seen the round on the left called 5mm X 44 or 4.85mm x 44

The round on the right called a 4.85mm x 49 Training or 4.84mm x 49 Short range.


#2

Simon,
Does your ball round round have any marks on the head at all?
If it does not I suggest it is a 5mm Ball (Issue A).
The head was then strengthened and the round became known as 5mm Ball (Issue B). These strengthened rounds were generally marked with a purple lacquer stripe across the head.

According to Peter Labbett’s 4.85mm Technical Ammunition Guide (which you are very welcome to borrow!) your training round is correctly referred to as the 4.85mm Practice Training Round. It was design no. DD/E/29398 dated September 1975. Nice specimen!

Jim


#3

Disregard my last incorrect identification!!
Page 19 of Peter’s guide shows your ‘training’ cartridge as being a 4.85mm Plastic Blank Cartridge. Design no. DD/E/29936/465 dated april 1976.
Perhaps I’d better just send you the book!!
Jim


#4

Thanks Jim.
No headstamp markings on either round.


#5

Identifying the myriad of 5mm and 4.85mm experimental types can be very difficult, especially as many were loaded in very small quantities in the lab at Enfield and only identified by spots of coloured paint.

However, here a re some of mine:
First the case types;

5.56mm Hs "RG 69"
5 x 44mm Type A with solid brass bullet for initial ballistic trials
4.85 x 49mm mock-up using 5mm case with brass collar.
4.85mm ball no hs.

Blanks

4 different types of brass bodied blank and three different types of plastic bodied.

Different loads
Ball
Tracer
Proof
Grenade blank
Short range

I believe the short range was also made with a tan coloured bullet.

There were also a very small number of AP rounds made with various shaped cores. I have a couple of these but only as loose projectiles.

Regards
TonyE


#6

Thanks Tony.

Jim,
What does your book say about this round ?

This has no headstamp and has been fired, I’m not sure the plastic bullet is seated at the correct depth.


#7

Simon,
Peter refers to this round as the 4.85mm Short Range Practice Ball and goes on to explain that two types were trialled - one type being a conventional plastic-bulleted practice round whilst the other was a dual-purpose blank/training round. i.e. it could be used in either role following minor alterations to the bullet (perhaps Tony can elaborate here).
The cartridge you have pictured is the conventional practice round and was based on a ball case, circa 1977, and fired a high density polythene bullet weighing 4.5gns. He states that both black and white plastic bullets reached the test firing stage and that blue plastic bullets may also have been trialled. The bullet should extend from the case to a length of 17.5mm.
You sure you don’t wanna borrow the book?


#8

Thanks again Jim…can I borrow the book ;-)


#9

Mrs. Peter Labbett may very well have copies of her late husbands many worthwhile writings available for sale? sorry but I’ve not an address perhaps Tony E. or Martin Golland does?


#10

Kinda related - I recently traded Armourer for some representative examples of the 4.85 x 49 cartridges. He really got to me on the trade, but that is neither here nor there. (Only kidding Simon).

Anyway, now that I have them in my collection I thought it would be a good idea to learn a little more about them so I have been doing my research. One little nit-picky detail that I noted is that many of the those British Experimentals have very dark case colors. Is that because of the annealing process, or what?

Ray