4 Gauge and 8 Gauge Rifle (not shotgun)


#1

Does somebody know who made in England 4 and 8 gauge rifles ?

I am not talking about paradox guns where the barrel is rifled only in the last centimeters, but of genuine rifles : barrel rifled from the chamber to the end.

thanks
jp


#2

JP

Greener made both 4 and 8 bore double rifles. I believe that many of his 4 Bore guns intended to shoot round balls only were not rifled since they were for very short range use. So technically, I suppose you would not call them rifles.

Ray


#3

Thanks Ray.
I didn’t know this info (in fact I know very little about shotsguns!!)

But I am 100 % positive about the fact there were 4 and 8 gauge rifled guns (all along the barrel) in England.
Who has manufactured them if it is not Greener ??
JP


#4

JP

I think you misunderstood. Greener made both 4 and 8 Bore double rifles. But, I think he also made some 4 Bore double rifles with smooth bores.

Ray


#5

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]JP

I think you misunderstood. Greener made both 4 and 8 Bore double rifles. But, I think he also made some 4 Bore double rifles with smooth bores.

Ray[/quote]

OK ! Excuse me.
Do you know who has one to have chambers dimensions ?
I would like to compare them to the data I already have to be sure the ones I have are matching.

jp


#6

I remember a single barreled 4 bore rifle by Bland coming up for auction at Christies in about 1968. I cannot recall how much it went for but it was a lot of money at the time.

Regards
TonyE


#7

[quote=“TonyE”]I remember a single barreled 4 bore rifle by Bland coming up for auction at Christies in about 1968. I cannot recall how much it went for but it was a lot of money at the time.

Regards
TonyE[/quote]

Hum !
Thomas Bland is a black hole for me because I have never been able to find any documentation on his product ! (except one punt gun case : steel base, paper tube)
jp


#8

JP

If you Google “4 Bore Rifles” or “8 Bore Rifles” you will get a lot of hits. Some of them are links to shooting Forums. You might find someone there who can answer your questions. I took a quick look and there seems to be a lot of information but it will take a lot of time to go through them.

Good Luck.

Ray


#9

Any & all 4 or 8 bore rifle cartridges I’ve seen, were loaded in standard 4 or 8 bore cases, The exception to this is the Cordite loaded, 4 bore REWA cartridge as I’ve not seen that case loaded for a smoothbore weapon.
As to chamber diminsions some of those may very well be VERY slightly different due to a lack of standardazion, but still made to chamber the “case” / “hull” of the day.
As to who made rifles? I’d think a number of makers might well have. Purdey, Westley’s, Tolley, or H&H, and perhaps others (like the aforementioned Bland). After all, at that time, one just went to his gun maker, paid money, told him what he wanted & if the maker felt comfortable it was in the works.


#10

Hi Pete !

  1. I am talking about paper cases shotshells, not all brass cases.
  2. I am not considering Paradow rifles as “rifled” barrel shotguns.
  3. “standard” (french or english) dimensions 4 & 8 gauge shotshells were used in smooth barrels shotsguns. I am 100 % positive.
  4. “special” (french or english) dimensions 4 & 8 gauge shotshells were used in rifled barrels shotsguns. I am 100 % positive.

Now, the question is:
Were “standard” (french or english) dimensions 4 & 8 gauge shotshells used in rifled barrels shotsguns ?

The answer is:

  1. About me I don’t know.
  2. You said yes. Please double check.

But the true question for me is :
Who were the rifles using special dimensions shotshells ?

You can recognize the shells because of a very thick rim.
(You have one in your collection : green paper, hstp is: 4)

JP


#11

Hi J-P
the paper cased 4 bore rifle (raised Eley headstamp) in my collection is a conical ball load & it has the same rim dia. and rim THICKNESS as the raised headstamp green paper cases (both Eley and Kynoch (a new primed empty) which are loaded with shot.
I was not taling about either a Paradox or a Cape guns. A Cape has one barrel (usually the left) completely rifled and not the last 2 inches as a Paradox gun which usually had both barells rifled (last 2 inches).

In answer to your ?
Were “standard” (french or english) dimensions 4 & 8 gauge shotshells used in rifled barrels shotsguns ?
My thoughs are: Yes they were.
I have no proof of this & so can only go with what I’m aware of.
You might also ask Martin Golland, or Jim Buchanan ? I don’t know if either watch this forum.


#12

Hi Pete !

I am not talking about the shell with Eley hstp, but about a NPE green paper lined brass I think you have in your collection with hstp : 4 (only).

Anyway, here is a short explanation about 4 and 8 gauges shells

  1. Regular shells used in regular shotguns (100 % sure) and perhaps in rifled guns
    a) 4 gauge rim thickness
    Eley: 3.25 max L=101.5
    Kynoch: 2.15 max for brass case L=101.5
    Kynoch: 3.30 max for paper case L=106.9
    SFM Thick rim: 1.90 max L=100 to 150
    SFM Thin rim: 1.40 max L=100 to 150

b) 8 gauge rim thickness
Eley: 2.85 max L=82.5 to 108
Kynoch: 2.15 max for brass case L=78.7
Kynoch: 2.15 max for paper case L=82.5
SFM Thick rim: 1.90 max L= 100 to 120
SFM Thin rim 1.40 max L= 100 to 150

  1. Special shells used in rifled guns (100 % sure)

4 gauge rim thickness
England: 4.00 Length 60 and 70
England: 3.60 Length : 54 and 70 mm
England: 2.15 Length 58
France: 2.70 Length 45
France: 1.90 Length 70

NB : When I say Kynoch it means Kynoch standard.
You have also Kynoch shells with the Eley standard later

Conclusion for the special shells:

  1. the Britishs have a rim either bigger or smaller than the regular rim
  2. the Britishs have a length a lot smaller than the regular length
  3. the Frenchs have a length a lot smaller than the regular length

jp


#13

Hi J-P
the 2-piece (ejector style) brass cased shell in my collection headstamped with a “4” (only, at 6:00), has a rim thickness of : 3.30 mm.
It is loaded with shot. The green paper showing at the mouth, is nicely roll crimped over a white topwad showing “BB” in black print.
The oal is : 93.61 mm.
hope this is of help
AZ Kid


#14

hi Pete!
your shell was made by SFM for England.
The length is 4 inches when unloaded.
therefore it is a regular british standard shell (and not one for a rifle)

You have exactly the same one (PLB) with a rim of 4 mm and this one is for rifles.

JP