.410 Indian Musket


#1

Can anybody tell me the meaning of the ‘I’ on this .410" Indian Musket round?
Is it ‘Indian’ or ‘Ishapore’…and if it’s ‘Indian’ where was the cartridge made?


#2

I don’t have an answer, but, is it a Roman numeral ‘one’ indicating a particular loading, like the ‘VII’ on a .303 British military cartridge?


#3

Interesting thought but doubtful - it’s a different font to that in ‘410’…which is definitely a numeral. I’d suggest it’s a letter ‘I’.


#4

The “I” is indeed an “I” and it stands for “Indian”, since the Indian .410" cartridge is an un-necked .303 inch case rather than a normal .410" shotshell.

I don’t know for sure who made it, but I think it could either be a Kirkee product or more likely one from pakistan.

Sorry I cannot be more definite!

Regards
TonyE


#5

Made to be fired in a smoothbored SMLE?


#6

Made by Ordnance Factory Khamaria, Jabalpur (also “Jubbulpore”), India.


#7

Vince: Made to be fired in a smoothbore, single-shot, Lee. Can’t be an Enfield, I guess, if it’s unrifled. Jack


#8

Jack, this cartridge was made for smoothbored (originally rifled) SMLE rifles converted at Ishapore.

Smoothbored SMLE rifles were also offered in USA during the 50’s by well known Hy Hunter. If you ever find a shot loaded .303 case of only 39-40 mm lenght it was probably made for these.


#9

Fede: Yes, I remember those items well but never had one; they were (and are) pretty much useless for anything but hanging on the wall. I would have liked one of the cartridges for my collection, but they were even then fairly pricey. Jack


#10

Thank you gents.


#11

In the book; .303 inch, A History of the .303 Cartridge in the British Service, by P Labbett and P J Mead, page 220 there is a description of the:-

CARTRIDGE SA BALL BL, .410 inch CORDITE MARK I

The specimen headstamp shown below the text and sectioned drawing is; K^F 33 .410I

This indicates that the “I” is for Mark I. The reference for the above excellent book is: ISBN-0-9512922-0-X.

gravelbelly


#12

Thanks Dave. I do have the book but I’m still inclined to think that it’s definitely a letter ‘I’ and not a number ‘1’ or it would logically be the same as the 1 in .410…I think.


#13

The ‘Mark numbers’ do not use the number 1 but the roman numeral I (II, III, IV etc) so it is possible that it is either the letter ‘I’ or the roman numeral ‘I’.


#14

[quote=“Fede”]
Smoothbored SMLE rifles were also offered in USA during the 50’s by well known Hy Hunter. If you ever find a shot loaded .303 case of only 39-40 mm lenght it was probably made for these.[/quote]

Does anyone have a picture of these shot loads for reference?


#15

Jim - I agree with you, that the “I” probably indicates “Indian” to distinguish the cartridge from an ordinary .410. However, don’t forget that prior to 1945 the mark number would have been Roman and therefore it would look like an “I” not a “1”.

Dave - I don’t think you can deduce from Labbett/Mead that the headstamp means “Mark I”. I have the full Kirkee ammunition drawings pamphlet from 1945 (which I intend to re-publish shortly) and that shows a similar headstamp for all .410 loads. That might seem OK, but the .410 Indian blank is the Mark IT blackpowder load. If your theory was correct, then the round would be headstamped “.410IT” which it is not. Also, the usual Kirkee practice was to put the mark numeral as a seperate entry in the headstamp.

Alpinehunter - here is a picture of the ball and shot load with a regular .303 ball for comparison. There was a .410I blank in the last SLICS auctionbut it went for more than I was prepared to pay.

Regards
TonyE


#16

Nobody has broght up that the first cartridge shown on this thread, the one for initial identification, seemes to be headstamped “ICI/” If it was made at OF Khamaria, would it
have an ICI headstamp? Also, it is hard to tell from the photo, but is the “ICI” and overstamp? The two “half circles” on each side of the headstamp look sort of like headstamp-cancellation marks, but perhaps are simply part of the headstamp design?

sorry if I am missing the obvious here, and asking a dumb question. I never have had one of these rounds go through my hands, and they are pretty much a mystery to me, or were until this thread.


#17

Actually John, it is stamped “410I” and I think you are seing the “10I” part as “ICI”.

Cheers
TonyE


#18

Looks like “IC1+” at 12 o’clock and “410I” at 6 o’clock to me.


#19

I think, looking at the actual round, that it is .410I at both 12 o’clock and 6 o’clock.


#20

Phil - I agree with Tim and Tony. It is stamped with the caliber at both the top and the bottom of the head as shown in the picture. The “4” at the top is under the semi-circular line. I did not see that until I had to look really close. Now, more than ever, the semi-circular lines looks like they were intended to be a cancellation of the headstamp, but maybe not, since if so, they missed all of the headstamp but that one “4”.

Thanks guys. Phil and I have old eyes! I am actually surprised it fooled him, but not at all surprised at my mistake.