.43 Egyptian


#1

Found in a batch I bought this morning. Brass case with flat-nosed lead bullet. I believe it has a Farrington primer. No headstamp.
Any guesses?

• OAL= 2.382”
• Case OAL=1.876”
• Head dia.=0.662”
• Primer dia.= 0.262” (nickel)
• Step-ring on head dia.=0.504”
• Rim thickness= 0.069”
• Bullet dia. at case mouth=0.440”
• Neck dia.= 0.479”
• Neck length to taper= 0.432
• Case Dia at rim= 0.579”
• Case dia. At taper= 0.540”
• Taper length approx.= 0.167”


#2

Roger–Looks like a 11x50R Beaumont or a 11.43x50R Egyptian Remington. It is really hard to tell them apart.


#3

Ron’s suggestions look good to me; would add that the primer is not a Farrington type. The Farrington is copper-colored and usually has a slightly concave “mashed” appearance. Jack


#4

Oops, I meant to say that I thought it had a Berdan primer, but I don’t know if they came in nickel.

Thanks for pointing that out to me and Thanks Ron for your two ideas. So, I still can’t really catalog it until I find out which it is?


#5

Roger: I would guess it’s a late product of UMC or Rem-UMC and that the primer is Boxer type. The Berdan primer UMC used the the large calibers was about .250 in. diameter and usually plain brass. Jack


#6

Jack
I’ve been collecting 22 rimfires since the late 70’s and just started branching into the center fires. I didn’t have to concern myself with what type of primers were in the 22s. Now I have a whole new field to try to figure out. This primer is a lot larger than the normal primers. It measures about .269" which is why I was figuring it to be a Berdan.


#7

Roger: Yes, I think you’re right in thinking this a Berdan; the size is too large to be the standard large Boxer type, which runs .210 in. This cartridge likely is by Rem-UMC and made at about the time the large Berdan types were being discontinued and nickel introduced for primer plating. Obviously Berdan and nickel overlapped at least for a while. Perhaps this dates the cartridge to 1915 or so? Jack


#8

Jack
More good info. Thanks


#9

Agree with Jack…43 Egyptian, Remington -UMC and about 1915 or so…

Randy


#10

In my initial post in answer to Roger’s inquiry I did not notice the nickled primer. Remington Arms Co. introduced the nickled primer in 1921. Remington never loaded the Dutch Beaumont, so the cartridge has to be a post-1921 .43 (11.43x50R) Egyptian.


#11

If this cartridge is like a partial box of them I just sold on GB, the primer appears to be tinned, not nickeled. The box is over-labeled SHOT CARTRIDGES, which, of course is not correct for these cartridges, but does say REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY, INC, so would put it 1920 or later. Good info, Ron, on the introduction of the nickeled primer…

Randy


#12

Since the question of plating World War One vintage Remington primers came up on this thread I have run across two different cartridges of this period with plated primers by Rem-UMC. One is a .30-40 Krag guard cartridge–the one with the long lead bullet heavily crimped into the case–and the other a .30 Pedersen round. Both are headstamped “RA 18”; the former has a primer that is obviously plated, but the nature of the plating is unclear. It has a silvery appearance like nickel but the surface is pebbled; the Pedersen primer seems to be an ordinary nickeled small pistol primer. My impression is that the Krag primer may have suffered some deterioration of its plating over the years and that, when new, it looked like an ordinary nickeled primer. Maybe someone can turn up some documentation on just what was going on in Bridgeport during the Great War. Jack


#13

Jack…I had forgotten about the R A 18 Krags with nickeled primer…mine are actually nickeled “bright”…and I also have some Krag cartridges with the “dull” “pebbled” primers…I was thinking this may be zinc or tin plating, which, as you say, may have deteriorated throughout the years…

Randy


#14

Could the primer be the British .250 Berdan ? and you just measured the pocket rather than the primer itself? Just a shot in the dark.


#15

Vince: The Berdan primer in the .43 Egyptian cartridge at the beginning of this thread is nearly identical to the big British Berdan primer, but those used in the .30-40 and .30 Pedersen rounds are (respectively) Boxers of .210 and .175. UMC introduced the big Berdan primer in the late 1860s and its use spread to Britain, Germany, Spain, Russia and elswhere nearly unchanged save for inch/metric adjustments. Jack


#16

Vince–The primer used in this .43 Egyptian is the U.M.C. #1 1/2 Berdan.

U.M.C. (and Remington) made the Berdan Primer in 4 sizes: #1, #1 1/2 and #2 Plus a special size for the 1inch Gaitling. Can anyone give me the diameters of each of these?


#17

Ron: According to Barnes’ Cartridges of the World the UMC Berdan no. 1 ran .251 dia., the 1-1/2 .217, and the 2 was .216. Logan quotes a UMC catalog from an unspecified date in the 1890s as using the Berdan no. 1 primer. Jack


#18

Jack–Thanks for the dimensions for the Berdan Primers. Any idea of the diameters of the Special Size for the 1 inch Gaitling?

You are correct that U.M.C. used the the #1 Berdan primer in the .43 Egyptian. Remington-UMC continued to use the same size until 1920. With the change to the Nickeled Primer in 1921, Remington Arms Co. changed to the #1 1/2 primer, which was the only size Berdan primer Remington made in the nickeled primer. They dropped the #1 & #2 from the product line at that point. You will note that in my previous comment I said:
“The primer used in this .43 Egyptian”, meaning the one under discussion, not all of them.


#19

Ron: That’s interesting about the late use of the 1-1/2 nickeled Berdan primer. Their relative scarcity makes sense in the light of the fact the calibers in which they were employed would by the 1920s have been seriously slow sellers. There is at least one UMC Berdan-primed cartridge that made use of the smaller (probably no. 2) Berdan–the .45-50 Peabody. Why it didn’t employ the no. 1 seems mysterious to me, but I suppose it made sense at the time. Thanks, Jack


#20

The last Remington Arms Co. catalog to show the .43 Egyptian was the 1937. That catalog lists it as “Being Discontinued”. It is not listed in the 1938 catalog.

It seems that Remington was clearing out all the remaining Black Powder loadings in 1937 as almost all of them (aprox. 50 to 60 loads) are shown as “Being Discontinued”. There are only a few Revolver (the .45-60 Win. is the only remaining Rifle load) Black Powder loads listed in the 1938 catalog.