44-40 Winchester High Velocity....Full Patch?

1932 shows a HV load with full patch bullets. Anyone have or seen a box or even cartridges?

Forgive me if I have already posted this, I have lost track of where I have been!!

Well not exactly sure what your looking for, but for what ever it’s worth…
Most function dummies have a full patch & here is a sectioned example.

The one next to it has it’s headstamp below, & it is a tinned GM-jacketed bullet with the tinning worn away near the mouth.

Last one [not shown] is a “WESTERN 44-40” small domed nickel primer, no case holes but a smooth bullet seating groove & a GM jacket.

All my Win. HV M-92 's have jacketed soft nose bullets. Have you looked in Shuey? No boxes as such here & have you looked in Giles & Shuey?

44 fp oa 44 fp

In that chart I posted, there is a 200gr full patch high velocity load listed. This is the first time I have seen anything other than just a JSP for the WHV load. I would like to see an example of both the bullet (which you provided, certainly they would be the same) and a box label along with the K-code. It would appear that Winchester would issue a different K-code for the Full Patch option as well as a catridge cut on the box.

Yes and no. I have a copy of Giles & Shuey. My only interests is the 44-40 and the books are getting expensive just for what little information I am looking for.

That Dummy is a pretty cool looking piece!

I try not to ask these questions but I ran into a dead-end!

No Shuey, but the 1941 Stoeger’s lists WRA as offering a FP .44-40 in the 1300 fps version; also the .30-30 was available in full jacket. I’d be inclined to wonder if the error is not in giving the FP bullet to the HV load. Jack

In Shuey’s Volume II of W.R.A. Co. headstamps (page 93) is noted a full patch, tinned for the small primer version, with the note that in 1905 only a 200 grain was available. Further noted is “1925 - SP ONLY”. Sure enough, on checking a 1925 catalog only the soft point is noted. Wonder if the 1932 was a misprint? Not sure if this helps… img487

Jack thanks for the support!! If you will look at the chart photo I posted in the OP, it specifically shows the ballistics for both WHV SP and WHV FP.

Here is a pre-1920’s WHV 200gr JSP that John Kort sent me to use in ballistic gel test. Actually he sent me five but this is the only one I could find after shooting.
You may notice the the test calls for HV velocity but yet only 1,157fps impact velocity. This is because I wanted to replicate rifle impact velocity at yardage, not muzzle velocity.

The 1,157fps impact velocity replicates an impact velocity at about 200 yards. So the photos should show what damage can be done at 200 yards with this JSP. At slower speeds (700fps) the bullet will penetrate the broadside of a horse.


DSCF3306 44-40HV-1

Modern JSP bullets use a harder lead and practically don’t flatten out (expand) at all thus penetrating more but not creating! as large of a wound channel. This one penetrated the same BUT entered a pine 2x4 to a depth of 1/2" at a slightly lower velocity 1,087fps

Dscf32791

I imagine that full patch bullet would penetrate much further but certainly not causing much damage.

Savage,
Good question!

I only have the 1925, 1938 and 1941 catalogs

Okay, I screwed that up. It’s late and I need to stop!!

The 1932 catalog shows four listings.

K4406T - Lead BP
K4411T - FP Staynless
K4412T - SP Staynless
K4414T - SP Staynless (WHV)

No mention of a WHV FP load.


This is what I think I see!!!

Again for whatever help.
A 45-90 Win HV box & the HS of the contents.
The only code I can find is on one on the end labels with a big red W, it is “99 2M?” the back label with the VOID over stamp is also shown. Giles probably has information on that. Yes the box labels are sort of light lavender / purplish color.

45-90 bacl label 45-90 hs

Edited to add, In my humble opinion catalogs are not really a very good reference, often the art work of headstamps is what a guy in the office thinks it should be, or it’s artistic license, (note; the same with box labels). And as for load information, that could be something not removed after production ended or not yet produced, or a typo. These catalogs were written by a number of human beings & so mistakes creep in. Now I’m not saying not to use but to continue what Jack is doing which is to check and try to verify.
Please forgive me if I’m preaching to the choir.

Yes I agree, in the 1979 catalog (information in the previously posted chart above), notice this was the first year Winchester reduced the velocity from 1,310fps down to 1,190fps for rifles…the velocities in the revolver section, same ammo, remained unchanged!!!

1890 Simmons Hardware Company still using the unheadstamped Milbanked primed/exposed grease grove cartridge cut from 1873.

Here is the Milbanked primed 44 Winchester cartridge Milbank 44WCF

!milbank_primed_cartridge Milbank_Primed_1_177LengthCase

Pete - good thought on catalogs, although in the main, I find them to be a pretty good reference. One caveat I often forget to mention when using a catalog for the opening and ending dates of a specific type’s production is that the last catalog the item is listed in doesn’t mean it was still made in that year. It is simply the last catalog in which the item was in stock at the manufacturer, available for sale. Some items are only made every two or three years, and remain listed even after the decision to discontinue has been made since there is still stock available for shipping in the warehouse.

Your entry was a good warning about discussing the PRODUCTION dates from catalogs, rather than the AVAILABILITY dates.

Thanks for the reminder.

John

John Moss

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In the Simmons cut it’s awfully hard to tell the “shot gun butt” from the “rifle butt”. Jack

For the time period in question, FP loads may have been used by prison guards or police. “Roaring Twenties”, etc. Our collections may not have any, but I’m willing to believe they existed.

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Boy who ever did that catalog you quoted sure knew what he was doing. Great write-up, photos & X-ray too.

By the way it sold for $3500.00

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Well that’s food for thought!!!

When I do look at the catalogs I just try to get an estimated time frame…but exact I’m sure is nearly impossible.

Pete, hope it went to a museum to be on display so others can see it. Wish I could see the real item instead of just the ex-ray.

Well I have to say, it would be nice if you could give credit when you use my (& others) work / catalogs.

If the X-ray was OK to see, the photos were of the actual cartridge.

No museums buy that sort of stuff, they want it gifted or on loan.
It would have been too old for our only actual museum which focused on Military & Police ammunition but is now very sadly lacking it’s founder, and so no longer open.

Oh yeah, it is a photo but I guess I meant a good color photo. It was from a a few years ago but I can’t remember where. I will see if it is still on the internet.

I think it’s in this catalog: http://pdbullets.com/catalog_order_files/%20%2317.pdf