45 ACP Eley?


#1

Hello.
I have in my collection a 45 ACP Eley.
I noticed that she had a 200 grs bullet ?
Someone has information about this manufacture. ?
Thank you.



#2

Vickers - I assume you are looking for a date on these, since the cartridge
itself tells the rest of the story. The earliest Eley Brothers Ltd. catalog I have that
shows the .45 ACP cartridge, listed as .45 Automatic Colt and offered only in
the 200-grain loading, is from 1910. They may have offered it earlier, but I have
no way to know that. A price is shown only for “Cartridges per 1000,” so they
did not offer a blank or shot loading in this caliber, nor did they offer bullets or
cases separately. The price seems to be 5 Pounds (even) per 1000 rounds. I
assume the prices are in English currency, since for most rounds their are three
entries, which I assume to be Pounds, Shillings and Pence.

The load is, of course, shown as with Smokeless powder in the Eley Catalog.

C.1920 (I forget the exact date and no time to research it right now), Eley and
Kynoch were joined and all of the pistol ammunition, by my understanding, was
then from Kynoch Ltd. and with their headstamp.

At that time, for commercial purposes, a 200 grain bullet was the norm.

Hope this helps and is what you wanted to know. Perhaps someone with earlier
ELEY catalogs, certainly post-1905 when UMC became the first producer, I think,
of this caliber, could check them.

John Moss


#3

Hi, Vickers and John,

Just checked my early Eley catalogs.
The .45 ACP is first listed in the price list for 1906. where the bullet weight is shown as 220 grns.
It is also shown as 220 grns in the 1907 list.
But goes to 200 grns in the 1908 list.
I dont know the reason for the change ?

Jim


#4

Jim,

Great information. I was not even aware of a 220 grain bullet
being used in any “hard ball” .45 auto cartridges that I can think
of. Thank you. Sounds like you have a great selection of Eley
catalogs. I am surprised at the very, very early date for Eley’s
manufacture of this round, since the first commercial .45, which
in a rather provinicial way we (I) think of this round as an “American
cartridge,” since the first serially produced gun for this round was
the Colt Model 1905 pistol.

Thanks for helping out. This subject interests me every bit as much
as it did Vickers, who began the thread. Thanks to both of you. Had
the question not been asked, I likely would never have become aware
of the 220 grain bullet. Now, its off to my collection and my electronic
scale to see if I have one!
:-)
John Moss


#5

I heard privately from Jim Buchanan, and there is an ELEY factory drawing
for 230 grain .45 Auto cartridges. Does anyone have any ELEY catalog listing
for them selling 230 grain FMJ .45 ACP ammo?

Not everything for which there is a factory drawing was actually manufactured.

John Moss


#6

John,

Is that what you are looking for?

Mike.


#7

Hello.
Thank you all for the information.
If this can help, I weighed this series of 45 acp.
The weight is in grains and for a complete ammunition.
From left to right

  • FA 12 11 : 323.5 Grs
  • WRAco 45 AC : 304 Grs
  • UMC 45 ACP : 306 Grs
  • UMC 45 ACP: 302.5 Grs
  • Norwegian: 297 Grs
  • Eley 45 ACP : 307 Grs

#8

Eightbore and Vickers,

thank you for that catalog reference, and for the bullet-weight
comparisons with headstamps. The format is identical to that
in the price list 83, from 1910, but the picture shows a more proper
representation of the bullet shape and the lower case cannelure. Once
again, for me, great information. Is there a chance you could PM me a
copy of that entire page, as well as the catalog title page, especially if
it shows the issue date? Perhaps you could also mention the catalog
date on this thread?

The cartridges and their weights are interesting too. I have all of those
cartridges, but had no gotten that far yet. I was even contemplating
pulling the bullet out of my one specimen that weighs 308 grains. It
seems now that despite its heavier weight, it could still represent a
200 grain bullet by the height of the cannelure. If you went purely by
weight, would would think it is a 210 grain bullet, which I am sure it
cannot be. I may still pull mine. I am always afraid of damage, since
once I pulled a scarce specimen, in my inertial puller, the the case
split almost 3/4 of its length from the mouth down. I have no trouble
doing a good job replacing bullets, The .45 doesn’t usually present
the problem of destroying or altering the bullet crimp, since they are
generally not roll-crimped. If they have stab crimps, sometimes those
are “flattened” slightly, so I try to avoid at all costs pulling one.

At any rate, thank you again you guys, Again, excellent information. By the
way, have you ever seen an Eley-headstamped (not Kynoch) .45 ACP
round you knew to have a 230 grain bullet?

John Moss


#9

Hi John.
I did not disassemble any of these cartridges to check the weight of the bullet.
I have only this Eley in collection and have not seen any other.
Have a good day:


#10

John Moss,

The information is from Eley Brothers Ltd., Export Price List 43, from 1914 - 1915.

Below is picture of the full page, cant get the book scanner to behave so sorry but it has to be a picture not a scan.

Regards,

Mike.


#11

Which Eley is older?
.45 ACP or .45 AUTO? (below)

Compering the height of cannelure, both Eley as well as Kynoch must be 200grs only. The rounds weight can’t provide as I don’t have the scale at home :(. Can post later.
Is that Maxim load original (longer OAL) or it’s a reload? There’s no sign of “shorter crimp”.


#12

I believe that the Eley’s with the large copper primer are older
than those with a smaller diameter brass primer cup. The reason
for that belief is that the Kynoch rounds, which come after the Eley
headstamps, I believe, have the small brass cups

There is nothing in your picture of four .45 headstamps that would make
me think that any of them are not 100% original factory rounds, and very
nice specimens at that.

John Moss


#13

Mike,

The photo is fine. Thank you very much for taking the trouble to
make it and post it. Also, thanks for the info on which catalog it
came from.

I have plenty to learn about these, despite collecting auto pistol
rounds, including .45 ACP, for 57 years.

John Moss


#14

To me it looks as though the overall length of the Maxim is too great. I would wonder if at some time the bullet has been pulled and reseated a tad too high. Jack


#15

Jack,

I didn’t notice that. Could be. I still believe it to be original.
When I say original, I mean all original components. Someone
may have wanted a look inside at one time, and was overly-cautious
about reseating the bullet. I pull bullets all the time from dupes for
that purpose. If I find anything interesting or different from the norm,
I leave the bullet out and put the case and bullet next to a loaded round
in my collection. If not, and it is a good round that someone else might
want, I carefully reseat the bullet to the original OACL. I try not to do
this with any in my own collection, not because I care that the bullet has
been removed (I don’t mess with rounds where pulling the bullet deforms
a crimp), but because one time a nice round’s case split badly when the bullet was pulled.
Aside from two early headstamps known only from one or two
specimens each on empty cases, I have all of the known Maxim
headstamps (month and year). Bullet characteristics (color tone
and finish) and all aspects of the case, primer and primer seal
look absolutely correct.


#16

John,

You are welcome.

I had a few minutes to spare this morning and had a dig into the piles of junk and came up with a later catalogue. I did a few quick pictures for you:-
Interesting to note that this catalogue was produced by Nobel’s who had bought out nearly all of the major powder/cartridge companies after the first world war and yet they still referred to them as Eley and Kynoch manufactured. This also is the Export Price List (a rather worn copy at that).

Again I had to take pictures as I can’t get it under the scanner and the book scanner is still refusing to play ball, bl##dy software after Windows updated.

Although the catalogue is dated as February 1925, I know it was certainly used until March of 1926. This copy was issued in February of 1926 and has an addendum of reduced prices on certain cartridges and bullet, I would assume these would be ones that were no doubt going to be discontinued later that year.

Didn’t get much chance to search for later copies to see when they stopped production of them, so far I have not noticed your 220 Gr but I have come forward not gone backwards. I take it you have noticed that the 230 Gr is always listed as the U.S.A. Government Model.

Mike.


#17

Hi.
Superb pictures Trabi-Fun.
I’m looking for a 45 with Maxim Marking if someone has.
Have a good day.


#18

More scans from catalogs and ads:


#19

Hi Fede,

Nice add, the Aquoid is a stunning cartridge too.

I notice that there is no weight given in the 1907 - 8 catalogue for the 45 Colt!

Mike.


#20

thank you guys! This is all good information. I have learned more about
Eley .45 auto rounds on this thread from you chaps than I knew since
acquiring my first Eley headstamp in this caliber perhaps 50 years ago.

Mike - I had noticed that Eley had referred to the 230-grain load as “U.S.
Government,” but with the added information, know now it was not an
anomaly, but actually their standard designation for that load. These are
great catalogs. Wish there were downloads of them to print out, as with
some other maker’s catalogs on the IAA website.

John