.45 ACP find


#1

I piked up this box of .45 ACP ammo at a gun show on Sunday. The box is unopened and is in very good shape. I was wondering if anyone can date it. I thought the directions on the back was strange. A couple of words have ink on them so if my pics don’t turn out right it says"Empty cartridge cases should be cared for and disposed of as prescribed in paragraph 29, Army Regulations 775-10." I could not find this regulation. Oh by the way what would be the value of this box? I paid $20.00 for it




#2

If you open it to look at the headstamp, you will decrease the value. To my SWAG, that is a very old box, perhaps pre-WW1.


#3

The M1911A1 was accepted ca1924. That should give you a starting point for dating. Good Luck!


#4

Frogbert,

A similar packet with Cartridge Lot No. 496 I was told contains FA 32 headstamped cartridges. The drawing No. is the same (B-503) and the powder lot is 108. “For Automatic Pistol Cal. 45 M1911” is not specified as by then the Thompson SMG may as well have been a suitable application.

Dave


#5

The wording about care and disposal of the cartridge cases dates from the time when cases were collected, washed in Sodium Carbonate ( washing soda) to remove all residue, and returned to a depot or arsenal for re-loading. As time passed (WWI, 1920s) the reloading of ammo fell into desuetude, and the cases were simply “Disposed of” through the Army’s surplussing system. The wording was gradually changed, and the final wording is simply
"Dispose of according to ARs" Even that wording disappeared after WWII.

DocAV


#6

Cartridge Lot 313 contains F A 25 and Lot 406 contains F A 30

$20 is about the going price for a nice clean box these days.

Roundsworth I don’t think you can judge dates on these type boxes by the pistol type noted on the label, I have a lot 1300 and it notes the .45 M-1911 pistol, and Lot 631contains F A 37 stamped rounds.


#7

From a very reliable source the box in question most likely contains F A 28 headstamped rounds


#8

The original edition of AR 775-10 was published in 1925 and paragraph 29 indicates that “All empty small-arms cases, together with clips and packing boxes, will be turned in to the local ordnance officer who, at the end of each target season, will dispose of this material as directed by the Chief of Ordnance”. There was not an indication to clean the cases with sodium carbonate or by any other method before returning them.

Subsequent editions modified the text and paragraph 29 was not not longer the one dealing with this subject, so it was omitted from the FA label during 1930. An exception is the FA label found in boxes of cartridges roll tested at Benicia Arsenal during 1938, which mentions this paragraph at a date when it was not longer correct.

Later, the wording was eliminated when the 20 round carton was replaced with a 50 round carton. This happened during 1942, not not after WWII.

Regards,


#9

I was told by the guy selling the box that they were for the Thompson.


#10

I have no intention on opening it.


#11

If the cartridges were SPECIFICALLY for the Thompson SMG, the label
would not say “For AUTOMATIC PISTOL, CAL. .45 M 1911.” The fact is,
that all of the standard Ball, tracer, etc. Cal. .45 M 1911 will also function
in a TSMG, M3 or M3A1 submachine gun, as well as in the Colt Model
1917 and Smith and Wesson Model 1917 revolvers, with clips so the
empties may be extracted by the Revolvers’ normal extractors. With the
revolvers, if not the type with extra stab-type case mouth bullet crimps,
though, there is always the chance of forward bullet movement in the rounds
in the other chambers of the cylinder due to recoil inertia.
edit to correct a typo spelling error only.

John Moss


#12

VERY cool box!
I have a copy of that updated regulation dated 1 October 1941, and it deals with EVERYTHING that went on in the U.S. Army, from cold weather clothing, to how many rounds were to be given to each specific training situation, from .22 LR to 37mm Tank & Anti-Tank, up to 155mm, (for instance: Coast Artillery: Shell, H. E., Mk. I, w/M46 fuze for 155-mm howitzer , quantity 4.) and the Chemical Warfare Service!
It is 630-odd pages long. I have not seen anything related to turning in the empty cases… yet?
I wish I had a copy of theedition FEDE quoted from!


#13

I find it interesting that thepowder type, “Bulls Eye” is specified.
I have never seen that, or at least I do not remember seeing that, but,
then again, my old memory is getting “there”.
How common was that?
And, yea, over tired may mean I ask several wuestions over time… Thanks all.

Ah, found this, same subject matter from 2013 July:


#14

Badger Jack

On a sealed box dated Dec 16, 1911 which is filled with F A 9 11 headstamped rounds (I’ve seen opened boxes) it mentions “Dupont’s Bulls Eye Powder Lot No. 51 of 1910” on the label. This seems to be one of the earliest known surviving M-1911 boxes.

Also you should be aware the FA headstamp of “10 11” does not seem to exist but “11 11” does.

On a Nov. 2, 1915 dated box “Bull’s Eye Powder, Lot H, No. 9 of 1915” is used.

On a June 14, 1919 dated box “Dupont Pistol Powder No. 3” is crossed out and a rubber stamp notes Bulls Eye Powder, Lot H-50 (packet # 243).

On a “Loaded Mar. 18, 1926”. The powder is; “DuPont Pistol, No. 5 lot 2” (Cartridge Lot 283).

On Cartridge Lot No. 303 box the powder was “Pistol, No. 5, Army Lot X89”.

On Lot 311 the powder is; “Bulls Eye, No. 2, Army Lot 90”.

On my last box of this style noting a specific powder, Lot 512, the powder seem to be the same Bulls Eye No. 2 but it is Army lot 100.

My next box is lot 600 and it was Roll Tested. Then is Lot 609 with is a typical ball box but neither of these mention a powder.

Hope this is of help.

I’ve submitted (in perhaps the next issue of the IAA Journal) a .45 M-1911 box photo with a note concerning this powder in the text. With thanks to the bible: History of Modern U.S. Military Small Arms Ammunition. Volume 1 revised. by Hackley, Woodin & Scranton.


#15

Pete, cool, thanks. I guess I need to go back and look at some of the boxes much closer.