Here is a picture with fired case 45 ACP made by IMI
Does dots on 9 and 3 o’clock mean something?
Here is a picture with fired case 45 ACP made by IMI
Treshkin, this was just recently discussed. It is believed to mark stations on SCAMP production machinery.
Thank you very much, jonnyc! I missed this topic
And, sorry for stupid question, what is it SCAMP?
Good question! I stole this from the posts of one of our other members, AKMS, from another website…hope he doesn’t mind:
“The dots are used to identify which station the case was made on the high-speed, rotary manufacturing machines used at Lake City. This machine was the result of a program called “SCAMP” dating from the early 1970’s. SCAMP stands for “Small Caliber Ammunition Modernization Program”. The dots are used in what is called the “octal numbering system”. There are 24 seperate, but identical stations on the loading machine. Each one is identified by a number, from 1 to 24. The combination of dots identify which station. Each dot has anumber value depending on where it is located in the headstamp. The dots are valued like this: (approximate clock face orientation)
3 o’clock = 4
5 o’clock = 8
6 o’clock = 16
8 o’clock = 1
10 o’clock = 2
Combinations of these numbers can represent any number from 0 to 31, but only combinations up to 24 are used.
Sometimes it looks like all 5 dots are used, but this is from “ghost” impressions. The actual dots to be counted are the ones that are “deep”.
This loading mahinery was sold to several different countries, so you might see the SCAMP markings on other than US made ammo. Israel is one that uses this machinery a lot. Originally they used actual numbers in place of the dots, but this was too expensive to keep replacing the marking bunters with the harder to manufacture numbers, so they went back to the original dot system. In addition to 5.56, I’ve seen a lot of Israeli .45 ACP with SCAMP markings as well…”
Thank you very much!
Regarding the notes from AKMS concerning the number of dots that were used, I do not know the exact context of his remariks. What I am about to say involves only the .45 ACP cartridge; I am not familiar enough with the .223 (5.56) or any other rifle or machine gun caliber that may be loaded in Israel on SCAMP lines to apply my remarks to them.
On cases headstamped IMI .45 ACP, but with scamp dots, the most I have seen are four dots, two on each side. However, on .45 rounds headstamped TZZ and the date made, I have in my own collection examples of headstamps with five dots, so the statement that only 4 dots were ever used, at least as it applies to the .45 cartridge, is not correct. In the case of my rounds, both specimens have two dots on the left side of the head and three dots on the right side. Each dot is as deep, as large in diameter, and as perfectly stamped as any other, and in the row of three dots spanning the (roughly) 2 o’clock poisition to the 5 o’clock position on the headstamp, the dots are perfectly equidistantly spaced. None of the dots is, in any way, simply a “shadow” hit of another dot.
Thanks, jonnyc and John for your comments.
I found some info in internet regrading SCAMP and IMI:
oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRec … =AD0729338
oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRec … =ADP000660
defenseindustrydaily.com/pas … ages-0859/
svr79.ehostpros.com/~a11com79/a/ … boutus.htm
The SCAMP info taken from another website is slightly out of context. The original post was in regards to US made 5.56 with SCAMP markings.
The Israelis may have adopted a “modified” SCAMP-like marking system that uses up to 5 dots. The location and orientation of which does not exactly follow the US pattern.
My apologies, but it was a much better explanation than I could have provided.
I thought the SCAMP info might be out of context, although still full of interesting information and except for the exception noted, relevent to this thread, which is why I hedged my bet a little in my posting. Thanks for clearing it up AKMS.
I see that IMI added a 9 mm Para SCAMP loading line to their factory in 1997. That is 14 years ago. Has anyone ever seen an IMI 9 mm Para headstamp with the SCAMP dots on it. I don’t recall ever seeing or even hearing of one. Does a SCAMP line necessarily utilize bunters with this dot system on them?
I regularly find IMI or TZZ stamped 9 mm cases in the brass bin at the local range, but none with SCAMP markings. The contracts* for the danish defense procurement system also does not have any such markings. Maybe only one production line is running 9 mm…?
*With NATO/Stanag symbol.
Aren’t the numbers at 12 o’clock at the IMI 9mm headstamps SCAMP positions? Just as the 12 o’clock and the 9&3 o’clock at the TZ/TZZ 5,56x45?
They are on the 5.56 mm rounds. However, I thought on the 9 mm headstamp styles you show, they were just the month of manufacture, or the lot number. The other is the date, or that’s what I thought. I could be wrong, for sure. I guess I have to say now that I don’t know what the numbers represent. Maybe Lew knows for sure.
Certainly not the month, as I have registered both 20 and 21 on 9mmP. And yes, the three o’clock position seems to be the year.
On cases headstamped IMI .45 ACP, but with scamp dots, the most I have seen are four dots, two on each side. However, on .45 rounds headstamped TZZ and the date made, I have in my own collection examples of headstamps with five dots.[/quote]
I’ve just receive this picture from my friend. The 3 dots in TZZ headstamps on .45 ACP also existed.