Does anyone have any info on the 45 Auto Rim with a h/s of REM-UMC 45 REV-17 I have never seen one and have only heard about it at one place ( and I forget where it was. Thanks in advance Dale
From the info that I have, the .45AR was not made until 1920 and was manufactured by the Peters Cartridge Co. It was designed for the surplus WW1 revolvers in .45ACP that came to the market and needed a moon clip.
Dale–I agree that the .45 Auto-Rim was introduced by Peters in 1920. The 1917 Remington-UMC catalog does NOT list it. My next catalog is 1923 and it lists both lead and metal cased bullets. I doubt if your headstamp actually exists. The format is all wrong. Even if it did exist, it would read either REM-UMC .45 AR or REM-UMC 17. I have 47 different .45 Auto-Rim in my collection and with one exception, ALL of them, regardless of brand, have either A.R. or AUTO-RIM in the headstamp. The exception is a PETERS .45 A.C., which may be the first .45 Auto-Rim headstamp.
If this H/s exists then the 45 REV-17 may stand for .45 revolver model 1917, not the date of the cartridge.
Gravelbelly–Good point and would make the headstamp make sense. But, I still do not think it exists. Back in the 70’s and 80’s I collected only .22 boxes and .22 singles plus .45 and larger Revolver (no automatic) cartridges. I have a fairly decent collection of .45 Auto-Rimmed and have never seen or heard of this headstamp before. If it does exist, and if someone turns up a spare, I would be the first in line to buy it.
Dick Fraser’s list of REM-UMC shows that headstamp from 1922 with a rarity of 5 (very rare). He lists it as being in the Woodin collection. Contact Dick or Bill.
There are FA headstamped cartridges so this may be one of the earliest military contract specimens. Just my SWAG though.
I have emailed Bill Woodin already and am awaiting an answer to it. I will post whatever he says. I only say this so a bunch of guys won’t email him. He has been away for a few days, and is about the busiest man I ever met. He would certainly answer every email, but I will be glad to post his answer.
I’m glad you did what you did.
I certainly didn’t intend for everyone to e-mail or phone Bill or Dick and I hope that they didn’t. I just assumed (maybe incorrectly) that Dale, being the guy who asked the question, would follow up and report back.
Ray - you didn’t do anything troublesome, mate! Bill, I’m sure, would have answered anyone who wrote. Being on the Board of Woodin Lab, I just try to help shortcut his work if I can. I knew he was away in Southern California for a week or so, and he is always busy. Once in awhile, if queried about auto pistol ammo, he sends it on to me - very flattering, since he has forgotten more about all types of ammo than I will ever know. Just trying to help out at the lab, since I don’t do my share down there, only getting to Tucson about once every three years, shamefully!
The .45 Auto Rim headstamp “REM-UMC 45 REV-17” absolutely does exist. The one in the Woodin Laboratory collection is probably a reload, however, having a flat nickel primer cup and an Elmer Keith-style flat nose lead bullet. We have confirmed all of this with Bill Woodin.
Thanks for your patience guys. I should have gotten on this sooner. Bill answered as quickly as he could, having just returned from his trip.
Thanks to you and Bill for your time and effort.
OK guys, fess up. How many of you got out your cigar box of 45 AR cartridges to see if you had one???
I did. (Looked that is. I didn’t have one. :( :(
Speaking of 45 AR - is there a list somewhere of the various headstamps and their value?? And the FA cartridges? When were they made? The only FA I have is the blank. Where can I get a Ball round??
Ray–Here I go again sticking my neck out, but I don’t think there are any ball rounds for .45 AR with FA headstamps. But then, I said I didn’t think the REM-UMC 45 REV-17 headstamp existed, so who knows.
The closest thing I know of is the .45 Revolver, Model 1906 with the headstamp “F A 4 06” but the rim is much to thin plus being made long before the 1920 introduction of the .45 AR.
The .45 Revolver, Blank, Model 1925 and .45 Revolver, Blank, M1 with headstamps “F A xx” with 2-diget dates from 1925 to 1941 plus the .45 Revolver, Blank, Pyrotechnic, T2-E1 and T2-E2 are the only types I have seen with FA headstamps.
You’ve probably forgotten more about the 45AR than I’ll ever know and if you say there are no FA Ball rounds I tend to believe you.
But it does beg the question. Why would FA go thru the expense of tooling up to make only blank cartridges? Especially 20 and 30 years after adoption of the ACP. When ACP cartridges and half-moon clips were readily available.
Are the odd 45 AR headstamps, such as 45 AC and 45 AUTO worth any more than the standard stuff? Or, are they 25 cent cartridges like all the rest?
Ray–The blanks were made for use in the Model 1917 Revolver by the Cavalry in training recruits to fire over the heads of horses and to accustom the horses to gunfire.
FA had not had any great success in making .45 Automatic blanks for the 1911 pistol and the 1917 Revolver. The Cavalry had been using .38 Longs but they were not load enough. Using half-moon clips was a lot of trouble and FA decided it would be easier and cheaper to design a rimmed blank for this use.
All this info comes from Page 16-17 of HWS, Vol. I.
Ray–I forgot to comment on your question about the “.45 AC” and “.45 AUTO.” headstamps.
I have only seen the “.45 AC” headstamp on an early Peters round with a rounded copper primer and a CN FMJ bullet. I got this out of a 1920-21 era box and I think it may be the first headstamp used by Peters. This probably should command a slight premium, maybe about $1.00 instead of 50 cents, but I doubt if most dealers would recognize it as the first (which I could be wrong about) .45 AR.
Only Western used the “.45 AUTO.” headstamp as far as I know. It is relatively common and I personally would not attach any premium to it.
Ray - I have to agree with Ron. HWS in their book on U.S. ammo don’t show any ball round from Franford Arsenal in .45 Auto Rim. I think the Army was pretty commited to the tactical use of half-moon clips duirng this period. The blanks were userd primarily by Cavalry to train horses to the sound and feel of gunshots around their head. There was a pyrotechnic blank, developed to give a large amount of smoke and flash, designated T2E1 (the other blanks in .45 auto rim were M1925 and M1), to be used for used by cavalry troops stationed at Fort Meyer, Virginia, for use in Pageants.
Reference: Hackley, Woodin & Scranto, “History of U.s. Military Samll Arms Ammunition, Volume 1”.
I was able to talk to Dick Frazer this weekend and he gave me the same info as John got from Bill Woodin so I guess that means there is possibly only one of these critters known. However I will keep looking
Ron, if any are found you can be first in line, right after me.
Thanks to all of you that offered the info.