45 MP Long case


#1

Here are long case (24.55 mm) 45 MP rounds, one with a short bullet, the other one with a long bullet

Wich one is the scarcest ?
JP


#2

I suppose that the one with the long bullet is the scarcest. I have never heard of any bullet shape other than the shorter, flat-nose type before, and it would not seem to conform to the drawings that exist of the tube-loading Maxim auto-pistol that these .45 MP rounds were made for. No one has ever seen the pistol, even in prototype, to my knowledge, but there is no question about what the cartridges were made for once one has seen the drawing.

Since the gun was a tube loader, it was not necessary for the cartridge to be rimless, and the bullet was purposely of lead and flat-pointed, like the early Winchester rounds - .44-40, .38-40, .32-20 - to avoid in-tube detonation due to recoil and bullet tips resting against primers.

Frankly, the long bullet doesn’t make sense in light ot what the round was made for. Are you sure it is a factory load? If it is, and I am not saying it is not, it must have been made to try some other application for this cartridge, and it is, I would think, very rare.

Why do you refer to this as the “long case” .45 MP? I only know of one case length. My specimen, which came from the original box, has a case length of 14.65mm (0.9705"), slightly longer than yours, but both probably within specifications.

Maxim’s drawing is dated November 17, 1885, and carries a number 14.047 which may be a British Patent Number. The cartridge case used is evidently a shortened .450" No. 1 rifle cartridge case, and bears the same headstamp of "


#3

[quote=“JohnMoss”]I suppose that the one with the long bullet is the scarcest. I have never heard of any bullet shape other than the shorter, flat-nose type before, and it would not seem to conform to the drawings that exist of the tube-loading Maxim auto-pistol that these .45 MP rounds were made for. No one has ever seen the pistol, even in prototype, to my knowledge, but there is no question about what the cartridges were made for once one has seen the drawing.

Since the gun was a tube loader, it was not necessary for the cartridge to be rimless, and the bullet was purposely of lead and flat-pointed, like the early Winchester rounds - .44-40, .38-40, .32-20 - to avoid in-tube detonation due to recoil and bullet tips resting against primers.

Frankly, the long bullet doesn’t make sense in light ot what the round was made for. Are you sure it is a factory load? If it is, and I am not saying it is not, it must have been made to try some other application for this cartridge, and it is, I would think, very rare.

.[/quote]

I am sure it is a factory load.
I will try to remember from who I bought it from.
JP


#4

Doesn’t matter. I had just never heard of a second bullet type in this case type before from any source. It would not seem to fit the action of the pistol, and the bullet is not the best shape for a tube loader, so if original, it must have been made up for some other application than the Maxim Pistol. I have a lot of shooting experience with Winchester and Marlin-type tube-loading rifles, as well as loading ammunition for them in five or six calibers over the years, and the overall cartridge length is very critical in them. I can’t imagine that it is different for the Maxim Pistol.

I have sent the drawing to Joe for publication on this thread. it should appear some time tomorrow.

I do not think the term “Long Case” belongs in the nomenclature for this round. That is anothor thing I have never seen before, that particular title for this round. It has been erroneously titled as the “.45 Metropolitan Police” and the “.45 Mauser Pistol,” both of which are wrong, but I have not seen any mention of “Long Case” before, and don’t know of a “short case” version.

John Moss


#5

Maxim Pistol Patent Drawing. Courtesy of the Australian Cartridge Collector’s Association, Bulletin Number 94, page 22.

John Moss


#6

Lord - Joe must not sleep. I just sent him that scan about five mknutes or ten minutes ago. It is 10:15 on the West Coast - must be 12:15 or even 1:15 back there. Super fast. Thanks, Joe.

Too bad it doesn’t come out on the Forum as sharp and clear as the copy I printed out, after I got through straightening it and cropping it. My copy is perfect - sharp as a bell. Well, it has been thru the wire a couple of times now, I suppose that is why. sure isn’t Joe’s doing, and not my scanner, either. I think it is good enough to give the idea and to show why there isn’t much question about the ID of the 45 MP as being “Maxim Pistol.” The cartridges pictured in the magazine tube in the drawing are very good representations of the .45 MP round.


#7

By the way, if anyone with a good grasp of this kind of drawing, and perhaps an engineering degree, could tell us what the apparatus is in the lower right-hand corner of the drawing (Figure 20?) I would appreciate it. I have looked hard at the drawing, and cannot see how this relates. It gives the impression of some sort of offset drum magazine, somewhat like a Luger snail drum, but that must be completely wrong, as the pistol is obviously a tube loader, from the drawing. I must try to find more information on this gun and perhaps the entire patent papers.


#8

John,
0.9705 inches is 24.65 mm (you mistook).
I was confused and have been searching for a long time a 14.65 mm length ctge in my drawings !! lol!
So yours is excatly the same as mine. Ouf !
I said long case like that, just because these rounds are not short.
JP


#9

And also because I started to post topics at 2 am (it is now 7.30 am) and was thinking at the long bullet.
Sorry
JP