.450 Gatling & .450 Gardner Gatling Information Requested


#1

Will Adye-White and myself are undertaking a research project to develop a comprehensive list of all known .450 Gatling and .450 Gardner Gatling rounds.

We are interested in all headstamped loadings, as well as unusual bullets, i.e. incendiary, dummies, proof, blanks, etc, headstamped and unheadstamped. Photographs of both the cartridge and headstamp would be most helpful. We are also interested in all dimensions and weights, if possible.

If no picture, a detailed drawing of the headstamp, as well as colour of paper patch, etc.

We are also interested in all contract rounds, headstamps and loadings.

Thanks,

Will Adye-White powdertin ‘at’ sympatico.ca
Paul Smith taps10 ‘at’ shaw.ca


#2

Hello, not sure it can help because both cartridges are unheadstamped and normal ball round, but just in case:

.450 Gatling :
case lenght: 59,8 mm
cartridge lenght: 75,6 mm
ball: 11,48mm

.450 Gardner:
case lenght: 62,1 mm
cartridge lenght: 84 mm
ball: 11,46 mm



Laurent


#3

Merci, Laurent.

I have, I think, similar rounds. Does your .450 Gatling have a brass or copper primer?

Does your .450 Gardner have the remnants of a paper patch? Mine does.

Paul


#4

Paul,
The .450 gatling had a brass primer and yes the .450 Gardner have remnants of paper patch.

Laurent


#5

Paul,
On my .450 Garner like on yours, the paper patch is regular all around the case neck, could it be possible that these cartridges were made like that?
Laurent


#6

Paul,
Here are my four specimens…two Gatling rounds (I’m pretty sure the coiled-case round is a Gatling!) and two Gardner Gatlings. I will of course provide any dimensions and/or weights as required.


#7

A few from my drawer.
Bruce Holm


#8

Laurent – I was wondering the same thing. Looking closely at my round, the lead is a little darker near the case mouth. This might be evidence that there was a paper patch until more recently.

Jim – thank you. The coiled cased round is fantastic, as is the RL 87 headstamped GG. The other two rounds are in beautiful condition. Yes, please provide weights and measures.

Bruce – thank you also. The 3rd and 4th ones in from the left are new to me. What is the headstamp on the blank? Can you send me weights and measurements on rounds 3 – 7?

Thank you,

Paul


#9

Jim, very nice cartridges! There is no doubt that the coiled case cartridge is a .500/.450 2 1/2" but in my opinion would be almost impossible to document that this is a “Gatling” cartridge. Even having a case body actually made of coiled tin -which is not the case- there is no way to confirm this either, but I think that the presence of a cannelure securing the bullet would be a most typical “Gatling” characteristic.

This cartridge was advertised by Eley in flyers from the early 1880’s and actual specimens can be found with a 480 gr bullet secured at many different positions. It is interesting that this is described as “the strongest and cheapest Military Cartridge”.


#10

maxhs_zps7e7edac0Maxoa_zps417d3fc4
450 chamber the left is headstamped MAXIM C while the other 2 show hs size var. I know not asked for but still 450 chamber.
redpatchoa_zps374eaeafredpatchhs_zps7a5ce84b
Cordite MK I headstamp variations.

45 chamber var.

ggoa_zpsf446f337


bottom row- L-R- MAXIM * 45 *, GARDNER MACHINE GUN Co. +, smaller size G G, larger size G G , board dummy large size G G & plain brass primer with no trace of patch.

top row L-R- plain copper primer, 8 R/|\ 5, 8 R/|\L 0 (struck primer & trace of white patch), R . /|\ . L IV & two coiled case var.

Re the black box above no idea what I posted here trying to restore these using PB links is not very easy sorting though their links
Re Fede’s post, these un-tinned Boxer cased examples may well be the .450 No 2 Musket. Bruce’s drawn copper primed example (5th from left) is. As far as I know only brass primed examples were packaged / labeled for MG.
However my 1st large GG example (4th from left top row) is the same case as the coiled case examples and those Bruce shows with copper and brass primers (his from left 4th, 5th & 6th). However my tinned case does have a tube in the bullet nose.

So Paul & Will, any trip your trigger?

edited to change 450 2 3/8" sporting to 450 No2 Musket in the Re Fede’s paragraph.


#11

Laruent, Jim, Bruce, Pete and Fede:

I think Paul and I have quite an undertaking under way here. These are all really neat rounds. Thanks to all of you for sharing them. Many more are going to come out in this project. Such as the Mark 1 blank with the blue paper bullet, Various dummies, headstamps not previously encountered, and lots of ball rounds both headstamped and unheadstamped. (i.e. DWM & G Roth rounds).

This is going to take longer than I originally thought.

Pete: Now you know why I spent so much time looking at your cartridges. I was trying to commit them all to memory. It didn’t work. You have some really neat rounds.

Cheers,
Will.


#12

Pete - thanks for pictures of your rounds. Yes, there are a few trigger trippers.

Here are my rounds:

Headstamps from left to right:

n/a
n/a
n/a
N.A & A No 549 4-75. Note the very thick rim.
<> KYNOCH & Co <> BIRMINGHAM (raised in groove)
n/a
n/a
R /|\ L IV
R /|\ L C I (smaller font)
R . /|\ . L C I
K IV

Paul


#13

Hello Paul,
Looking at your pictures, it seems that the 4 cartridges on the left haven’t got the same shoulder place than the others and also a neck shorter. It could be the picture or my eyes but can you confirm these, please?
Regards
Laurent


#14

Hi Laurent,

You are correct. The 4th cartridge does look as if the shoulder and neck are different. I think that this is explained by the very think rim that this round has. The rim is 2.2mm thick vs the .45 Gatling Light Mk I which has a rim thickness of 1.6mm. They have the same case length of 59.8mm. If the rounds are placed side-by-side with the front face of the rims lined up, then the shoulders are equal.

Paul


#15

Here are a couple of labels and also some WWI Air Service GG rounds.

Air Service rounds.

L. to r.
Tracer
RTS
Buckingham
AP

Regards
TonyE


#16

Great stuff Tony & Paul
Since you asked for .450 chambers here are two more,
GGLoa_zpsb8561304GGLhs_zpse08fde6a
A label to add.
This label originally contained, what I’m quite sure was like Bruce’s brass primed example (4th from left), but I have no absolute proof, having only seen the label but not a box with it’s contents.
KynochGatlinglabel_zps29360f4c


#17

Paul
I believe the great, raised Kynoch Birmingham headstamped round you show would be a sporting variation of the 450 No 2 Musket. It also exists in .450 No 1 Express, 577/450 MH, & 500 3" BPE to name some other case types.

I hope you get Bill’s collection included in your article.


#18

#3
820.2 grains total weight
11.81 bullet
59.97 case length
16.94 rim
14.52 head
12.21 neck
83.9 oal

#7 Blank
311.4 grains total weight
58.35 case length
16.82 rim
14.66 head
12.36 neck

Blank Headstamp

Bruce Holm


#19

I found an opened but full packet of the “LOADED CARTRIDGES for GATLING .450” box I posted a photo of above.

The contents are the same as Bruce shows in his 4th from the left, with a brass primer, but a longer visible portion of the patch similar to what Jim identifies as by RL, for Indian service, in his 2nd picture.

One round in the packet has a copper primer and a shorter visible portion of the patch, I think it is not original, as all the others are alike. It looks like Bruce’s 5th from the left.


#20

Would anyone here have technical drawings for any of these .450 Gardner Gatling cartridges? The ones I have found do not have dimensions for the shoulder.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!
Joe