Can anybody give some detailed information？Thanks！
H/S suggests Schneider, but the 47 mm Schneider I’ve seen has a very long case and pictures are deceiving. Can you get a measurement?
height:205mm diameter of the rim:64mm
Sheng, are the characters Japanese or Chinese? Do they matter?
Interestingly it is not in Hawkinson’s list!
Sheng, Very interesting! I have this case type tentatively identified as the 47 mm Schneider M. 1936, which as far as I know was only adopted by Romania. However, I have not been able to confirm if this identification is correct.
I forgot to mention that there is also a longer 47x343R case made in Romania that was reportedly used in the Schneider M. 1936, but it seems that it was a later development to improve the ballistic performance of this gun.
Hope others can help.
从军纪念means the case is a souvenir for join the army
Silly question, but what is “Hawkinson’s list”?
I’m guessing it is a case type listing of larger caliber cases.
Is there a way to get a copy of the list as I know little about the larger calibers and would love to have a reference document.
Bob (Robert) Hawkinson is an IAA member look him up in your membership directory for contact. He has authored two books on large bore. Giving the cartridge dimensions he alsonotes the gun(s) . Lists are arraigned for easy use using key measurements.
Very worthwhile books if you get into this field.
If you go to SLICS he’s the guy in the middle of the back row with all the brass.
In my personal listings i have the Romanian 47mm Schneider md.1936 as 47x342R, based on actual dimensions provided on the wk2ammo forum. Never heard of 47x205R64, and also never heard of changing case lengths mid-production since that would raise problems of non-interchangeable ammo between guns and so on.
I`d note here that Romania also had two other 47mm guns, the Breda and the Bohler, with the case dimensions of 47x195R and 47x233R respectively.
The case provided by the OP is , in my opinion, either something experimental, either something for trials with another country that did not adopt it eventually.
The Romanian made 47x342R or 47x343R cases you mention were made in the 1940’s, which is after the gun was modified by Concordia before being adopted and produced in mass by Romania since 1939, that’s why this gun is also known as the M. 1936/39.
In other words, Romania actually did not adopted the Scheneider M. 1936 gun, but a local modification manufactured since 1939. For this reason, I believe that the 47x205R could be the original case used in the Schneider M. 1936 gun.
“A Guide to the Identification and Research of Big Bore Ammunition 20mm to 80cm” (2nd Edition) is available from Robert Hawkinson, RCJ Cartridges, 10146 North Wauwatosa Road, Mequon, WI 3097. Phone is 414-975-5871 and email is firstname.lastname@example.org
It is extremely well organized and details, and an absolutely essential reference tool for anyone interested in big bore cartridge cases.
Thank you to PetedeCoux and JohnS for the information regarding “A Guide to the Identification and Research of Big Bore Ammunition 20mm to 80cm”.
I will drop Mr. Hawkinson a line.
All the best,
thank you for these info.
Now the question, why the Chinese inscription?
Did the gun also adopted by China?
If the inscription is “Army memorial”, the gun was adopted for sure, but this gun doesn’t listed.
any help please?
Couldn’t it be a delivery for the Chinese nationalist army, the Kwuomintang? It didn’t matter from where it came. As long as it fired, it was good enough.
Interesting item, unknown to me! I do not believe this is a Romanian case: the case markings, the primer markings, the primer type…nothing is Romanian-like (I have 47/75/100 mm Romanian cases in my collection). The case itself looks 100 % French to me. The position of the markings, the font, the abreviation after the calibre. Even the “O” near “36”. The primer however, is unknown to me. I think the hint lies there to figure out which country tested or used this type of case.
Interesting note, in my references I found another French case with the addition of S.EL on a WW2 dated 75x104. I expect the S = Schneider, EL = unknown to me but a collector once told me “S.EL” is the French designation for “landing gun”.
If the case would be for sale/trade, I am very interested!
the french 47mm X 193 mm french heavy tank case is a 1935 Mod. joe gatz
Sorry to revive this topic but i think this is VERY RELEVANT.
Honestly i don`t know why the gun is called in the wide knowledge “Schneider-Concordia” since it is in fact not based on the Schneider 47mm gun but on the 4,7cm KPUV czech gun.