.577-450 assortment


#1

Here’s a group of .577-750 Martini-Henry cartridges that I picked up in a recent auction. They are from the left an unmarked coiled case example - I believe the bullet has slipped back in the case a bit, three Kynoch loads, including an orange patched smokeless load for the Maxim machine gun and a green patched cordite carbine load, an Eley load with a unusually long patch, A French S.F.M example, and a well worn Dominion example.


#2

Very nice rounds. I need to move to the USA so I can collect ammunition more easily.

Any kind, ammunition friendly, American ladies out there want a Brit for a husband ?


#3

A very nice set of rounds Guy. The green patched cordite carbine is particularly hard to find even here in the UK.

They are all commercial though and so the orange patched one would not have been for the Maxim. Also the headstamp style is much later than the period when the Maxim was in service.

Armourer - you do not need to go to the US to collect ammunition. If you are a member of the IAA or ECRA you can have your FAC varied for ammunition.

Regards
TonyE


#4

Please DO move to the US. Collecting ammo here is easy and lots of it. Plenty of gun and cartridge shows. I will sponsor any collector who wants to move to the US of A ! NOTE - you can not get good fish and chips here BUT the sausages are much better AND we speak a version of English (well-some of us).


#5

Where do I sign? I am frustrated with everything here in the UK, and would like to move somewhere where I can collect ammo (and of course guns) much more easily. Preferably one of the Southern states with a relaxed attitude to gun ownership. Somehwere where your guns do not need to be registered on your permit would be even better. However, I think I would sooner stay here than live in California (sorry John Moss and anyone else reading this who lives there).

The setback of all this as I can benefit the USA in no way, so will not be given a green card.


#6

Falcon - don’t apologize to me about your remarks concerning California. I would rather live in England where I could collect ammunition easier!

John Moss


#7

From left to right :

  1. Paper patched bullet, hstp : * SFM *
  2. Crimped case (4 crimps), hstp * SFM * GG
  3. Maxim round, CN bullet , hstp : Maxim C

There is also a SFM round very similar to N


#8

Where do I sign? I am frustrated with everything here in the UK, and would like to move somewhere where I can collect ammo (and of course guns) much more easily. Preferably one of the Southern states with a relaxed attitude to gun ownership. Somehwere where your guns do not need to be registered on your permit would be even better. However, I think I would sooner stay here than live in California (sorry John Moss and anyone else reading this who lives there).

The setback of all this as I can benefit the USA in no way, so will not be given a green card.[/quote]

You can get the papers started to come over legally or just show up and not go home like about 20million others here. In most locations in the US one can collect most any type of LIVE ammunition without a license or get a license and collect ANYTHING except atomic,bio or chemical. We need all the English speaking humans which we can get. Get a student visa and come see for yourself.


#9

Finding (and of course paying for) somewhere to live is the problem that cannot be overcome. And once I was there what could I do to make money? Me coming to live in the USA will not be happening any time soon.

On the other hand, if I did come, could I ship my collection over? Would they let it enter the country?


#10

Tony E,
Can you speculate what the orange patch might indicate on a late Kynoch round? It does not appear to be a reload.


#11

Finding (and of course paying for) somewhere to live is the problem that cannot be overcome. And once I was there what could I do to make money? Me coming to live in the USA will not be happening any time soon.

On the other hand, if I did come, could I ship my collection over? Would they let it enter the country?[/quote]

YES.


#12

Hi Guy

Sorry for the delay in replying to you.

I agree that the orange patch was the identifier for the “Cartridge SA Ball Martini Henry Rifle Cordite” which was in fact a Maxim round and which title was changed to “Cartridge Machine Gun Ball Martini Henry Chamber Cordite Mark I”.

Also though, large numbers of “Cartridge SA Ball Martini Henry Rifle Solid Case Cordite Mark I” which should have a blue patch were issued with an orange patch and the labels overstamped “For Rifles Only”. In fact in over forty years of collecting I have never seen a blue patched MH round.

It seems that the orange patch became the generally accepted identifier for the rifle cordite round.

The rounds you have are difficult to date but are commercial production probably from between the 1930s to the 1950s. Kynoch offered three basic solid drawn types during that period, albeit with different bullet/loads.

Blackpowder Rifle - white patch
Cordite rifle - Orange patch
Cordite Carbine - Green patch

The picture below is from an undated, but c. 1935, Kynoch catalogue and as you can see, in addition to the above, they were still offering rolled case rounds. The blackpowder carbine load in the rolled case had a maroon patch.

The same drawn case ammunition was on offer in the 1960s catalogue.

The headstamp of a military round intended for the Maxim gun would include the letter C to identify the Cordite load and would typically be “K C I”. I have an example of one of these.

Regards
TonyE


#13

Tony,
I appreciate the response, and also appreciate your including the scan of the catalog. I believe I have the same catalog, and as it is undated, I had wondered about when it was published. Was that scan from page 92?


#14

Yes it is from Page 92.

I do not know what date it is other than it is 1930s. My only reason for suggesting it might be 1935 is the printers code on the last page which is 474/53/735. This in itself means nothing, but I also have a two page supplement at the back which is coded 428/53/736. Since printers usually include the date in their codes I wondered if the 735 meant 1935 and the supplement 736 meant 1936? Spurious logic i know…

Regards
TonyE


#15

Hope this is of some use.
The Catalogue as you can see is dated 1925 and the printing code is 527/14/225, there is a supplement also dated 1925 with a printing code of 584/33/425

The next 2 pictures are taken from this 1925 catalogue.


#16

Many thanks for that. It seems to suggest that I was correct in my assumption, as the last two digits do appear to represent the year.

I have just checked some other Kynoch catalogues and lo and behold, the late 1930s military one is numbered 437 and the post war one that I know is 1957 is numbered 657.

Elementary my dear Watson!

Regards
TonyE


#17

Tony,
Ours are the same catalog, as the printer’s code on the last page of mine is 474/53/735 also. I had also figured the date was in the code, but had assumed the middle digits were the date, although 1953 would probably be a little late to still be producing the rolled cases.

Is your 1935 catalog bound with paper covers as on Armourer’s 1925 catalog, or is it made up of loose leaf pages in a brown leather-like cover.


#18

The latter, loose leaf with the brown leathercloth cover.

The 1937 military catalogue has a paper cover (below) but also has an clear acetate cover over that, but I am not sure if that is original.

Regards
TonyE