57MM - Unknown, Fake or Hybrid?


#1

I purchased this inert 57MM shell a few years ago and it does not look 100% kosher to me :-) The projectile appears to have been chromed? I have seen a few 57’s in the past and none had a projectile shaped this way. If you shine a flashlight threw the empty primer hole you can see that the projectile has a large hole in the base and appears to be hollow. I thought that maybe the projectile was a homemade job but after looking threw the primer hole. I have my doubts. Also, not sure how much extra width the chroming process adds, but it looks like the projectile is slightly larger then the width of the casing. I hope the pics show how the case mouth almost slightly bulged as if the projectile was forced to fit. Anyhow, anyone have a clue on what this is? Perhaps a hybrid of a real case and real projectile that don’t match? Perhaps the correct match but the chroming just widened it? Or maybe just a complete fake replica of a non existent round? Their are no lettering or numbers on the projectile, possibly covered by the chrome?

Pic of complete round. Projectile looks longer then any I have seen.

Projectile Close-up

Crimp area, note buldge. Looks like it did not fit properly.

Another

Headstamp Scan

Thanks for any help ID’ing this.

Jason


#2

I think the driving bands on the original shell would have been copper, wouldn’t they?


#3

Good thinking! If they are copper, they have ben chromed over. Maybe I can use a tool to slightly scratch it to see if their is copper underneath?


#4

I don’t know what that projectile is, but someone certainly forced it into the case. There is no way that is the correct projectile. Look at how the case mouth is stretched.


#5

I agree it was shoved in and stretched the case mouth. I am just trying to figure out if the projectile is completely fabricated as a homemade project, or if it is a real projectile that does not fit due to the chroming process adding width? I am going to schwak the driving band latter with a screwdriver to see if their is any copper underneath the chrome. Also, the projectile may be real and just have no association with this case? My gut feeling is that the projectile was fabricated on a metal lath.


#6

Even if this is a real projectile, it is definitely not the correct one for this case. The layer of chrome plating would only add an almost immeasurable amount of width.


#7

Here is the original cartridge with AP and APHE. The driving band looks similar.


#8

I was also thinking the chroming process would ad only a slight additional thickness to the projectile. In am now thinking it is not a match with a strong chance the projectile is a metal shop project. After seeing the great pics of the 57’s that genkideskan just posted (THANX), I will be on the hunt for a real, inert, 57 and most likely get rid of this one. Really appreciate everyones input and help.

Jason


#9

Jason

Most artillery projectiles of that size would have a bourrelet. Yours appears to be just the opposite. Some simple measurements of diameter should tell you a lot.

Ray


#10

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]Jason

Most artillery projectiles of that size would have a bourrelet. Yours appears to be just the opposite. Some simple measurements of diameter should tell you a lot.

Ray[/quote]

Ray,

Isn’t this 57mm the U.S. equivalent of the British 6 Pdr 7 Cwt round? If so their diameters should be the same. I have just measured the diameter of the steel body of a 6 Pdr 7 Cwt APCBC projectile as 56.68mm. The British 6Pdr projectiles did not have a bourrelet.

gravelbelly


#11

gravel

Yeah, you’re right. I used the word “bourrelet” a little too loosely there.

First off, I should have said that many projectiles of that size will have one. Secondly, (as you know) those that do not have a seperate bourrelet will have the entire body forward of the driving band machined to bore diameter which, in effect, acts as a bourrelet, or bore-rider. The projectile in question seems to have a taper from base to nose although it may be nothing more than an illusion due to camera angle.

A few measurements by Jason are in order.

Ray


#12

looking at several rotating band these couldt be british - anybody here has an 57mm british projo ?


#13

Ok, I just measured the diameter just under the bands and above the case with a set of calipers. Kinda embarrassed that I am not 100% sure on how to read the measurement but am pretty sure it says just under 57MM? The caliper is incremented in CM with 10MM increment lines between them, not digital. I may have to go out and buy a nice set of digital calipers as I am learning they come in real handy in the “Ammo Collecting” world :-)

Jason
PS: If I put the calipers on top of the lower band in reads, just under 61MM, maybe 60.5?


#14

Jason–Digital calipers are nice and are easy to read, but there is nothing wrong with the ones you have. You just need to learn how to read it. What you have is called a Vernier Caliper. BTW, the little lines are 1 millimeter, not 10. 10mm is 1cm. So to read it, you read the bottom scale to the closest lower line, say 43mm. Then you look at the short scale of 10 lines at the top. Find the line that lines up the best with the main scale and that gives you the 0.1mm. So if it lines up best with line 7, the reading is 43.7mm.


#15

A good DRO caliper can be had for less than what you will pay for a collectable cartridge. They can be switched between Metric and Inches with the push of a button. I can’t imagine being without one. I have three so I know that one will always be handy wherever I happen to be. The old vernier calipers went the way of the slide rule and should stay there.

JMHO

Ray


#16

I tried again with the Vernier Caliper and it is driving me crazzy :-) I just ran to Home Depot to get a digital one but they did not have one so I purchased one with a dial that gives you the .01"'s. ALLOT easier then my 1st set. Anyhow, the measurment is 57.27 MM’s


#17

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]A good DRO caliper can be had for less than what you will pay for a collectable cartridge. They can be switched between Metric and Inches with the push of a button. I can’t imagine being without one. I have three so I know that one will always be handy wherever I happen to be. The old vernier calipers went the way of the slide rule and should stay there.

JMHO

Ray[/quote]

Ray,

You just made me feel really old. I use verniers all the time, both as calipers and rifle sights. Once you have been taught to use them you never forget (like falling off a bicycle), and they don’t need batteries. However, I agree that a DRO caliper will do the job just as well for most people. I still think of them a bit like adjustable spanners (wrenches in the USA). During my apprenticeship, to be seen with an adjustable spanner was to suffer derision. These gadgets were for people who couldn’t look at a nut or bolt and pick up the correct spanner to fit.

gravelbelly


#18

gravel

OLD is exactly why I finally went to a DRO two-way caliper. :) :) Seeing those tiny lines and which one lined up with what got to where I needed a jewelers loupe as a backup to my eyes. I found I was making a lot of mistakes even with the dial calipers.

I think my wife thought I was collecting diamonds rather than cartridges because every time she would pass by the door to my room I had that loupe planted in my eye socket.

Ray


#19

[quote=“Ray Meketa”]gravel

OLD is exactly why I finally went to a DRO two-way caliper. :) :) Seeing those tiny lines and which one lined up with what got to where I needed a jewelers loupe as a backup to my eyes. I found I was making a lot of mistakes even with the dial calipers.

I think my wife thought I was collecting diamonds rather than cartridges because every time she would pass by the door to my room I had that loupe planted in my eye socket.

Ray[/quote]

Ray,

Isn’t walking around festooned with jewelers loupe’s, multiple spectacles, hand lenses a normal state of life? Jokes apart, I too had real big problems seeing things. Luckily I developed cateracts and got new plastic lenses fitted in both eyes. now I only need a few spectacles and a hand lens or two! I can also find my rifles and shoot them.

gravelbelly


#20

Ok, must confess, I still think I may be reading this thing wrong. I tried scanning the calipers but am not sure they will be legible? I zoomed in and was able to see the metal one ok, but it may not work here? The caliper with the dial was hard to scan. I will try using a camera next if no one can read these pics. Driving me crazy, will definitely be hunting down a digital one.