58 white brass cge

There was a brass case 58 White ctge on Engels auction
Are you sure it is not a fake ?

no answer ?
I think it is a fake but if nobody interested no problem
jp

Jeanpierre - why do you think it is a fake?

John Moss

hello John
because it is brass case
JP

In IAA Journal 487, page 54 there is a short article on the White 58 auto. It shows 5 or 6 case lengths and says they are all turned from aluminum bar stock. I believe this is the reason for jp’s concern.
Zac

The brass case, of which few are known, is longer than the “standard” aluminum case, and its, like the aluminum versions, turned from brass bar stock. They are a first rate machining job.

In Dwight Jackson’s article from IAA Issue 487, he does not state that all .58 White cartridges were turned from aluminum bar stock. The statement was, “All examples THAT I HAVE OBSERVED appear to be formed directly from round aluminium (UK spelling) bar stock…” I cannot know what Mr. Jackson’s belief is in regard to other case materials, but I do know he is a very knowledgeable student of ammunition, and a good writer. The operable words in the statement, that were left out of the first quote, are “that I have observed.”

I have no solid opinion on whether the brass-case .58 cartridges are fakes or not. I do not even have a firm opinion that if they were part of a legitimate experimentation, that they were part of the “.58 White” experiments, although the measurements would make that likely. My biggest question is if they are fakes, to what end were they made? There do not seem to be enough of them known to have made the work that must have gone into their precision manufacture profitable. I have no knowledge of what kind of prices have been asked or paid for those cartridges - they are somewhat beyond my own interests in auto pistol cartridges.

I simply was curious as to why they were thought to be fakes. “Because it is a brass case,” is not much of an answer, in my view. Even in Al Paulson’s relatively in-depth article on Mark White’s work (Machine Gun News - July 1992, pp 26-28), he does not even mention the case material of the .58 cartridge, although admittedly, while a good article on White, it deals more with White’s suppressed .45 caliber carbine. His description of the .58 cartridge, starting with the statement “White has developed an interesting .58 caliber subsonic pistol round…”, is only mentioned in the second-to-last paragraph of the article, and a short one at that.

I think we are a long way from knowing everything there is to know about Mark White’s development of the .58 White cartridge. I don’t know of any publication that contains a picture, or even a proposal sketch of a pistol, for this caliber, for example. Dwight’s article has the most information simply because he supplies a photo of four different case length cartridges, and case length measurements for six such rounds. Any time you have a “concept cartridge,” as Daniel Watters aptly referred to it, you will have variations, and the method of manufacture of the brass case in question and its quality would not, in my view, automatically rule out that it was part of the White’s experimentation with this cartridge, for which it seems no prototype pistol was ever made.

I think the final answer can only come from Mark white, of Kodiak, Alaska, if he is still with us. And, again, I have no firm opinion of the actual status of the longer .58 brass case that I have examined.

John Moss

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John

i visited once Al Paulson and he introduced me to Mark White
The story is the pistol was rejected because of too big caliber
Almost all the aluminium case 58 White ctges you find on the market are coming from me
(including the ones with experimental bullets in Woodin collection)
I asked Mark White to buy his ctges
They were all aluminium in two different case lengths(15 ctges of each case length)

we can also note the difference in dimensions for head and rim between mineand the brass ctge
15.87 instead of 15.7

picture of the hstp
58 3

if the project was finished already when he was using aluminium cases i do not see the need to make brass cases
But who knows ?

JP

Was simply trying to point out the article as the possible source of jp’s concern. Did not mean to make a statement or quote. My bad.
Zac

JeanPierre - a much better answer, my friend. Thank you. It would appear then, that these were not likely a product of Mark White. I knew the pistol (cartridge?) was rejected due to legal issues over the caliber. Of course, too classify this cartridge, or something like the .600 Nitro Express, as a “destructive device” is almost child-like it is so ridiculous, but that is the type of thinking we live with here.

I had, by the way, forgotten that White made more than one case length in the .58 cartridge. Since you met him, do you know if he ever made even so much as a prototype pistol for the .58 cartridge? I did not remember about the different case lengths until I looked in my file on this caliber, which I had not reviewed in years.

By itself, not being a product of Mr. White does not automatically make the brass cartridge case a fake. I will rest with the idea that the case was made for “unknown reasons” by an unknown person or company.

Do you, by the way, have the measurements for the brass case. It would be interesting to compare them.

Thanks for the additional thoughts. They are appreciated. This has been an interesting discussion. And, no apologies needed from anyone involved. As to the quote, I was just mentioning it to clear the record of what was actually said in the article.

John Moss

Brian - that’s a surprise to me. The case I examined had no headstamp. It was a NUPE case. I assume by “head”, since you gave a rim measurement, you are referring to the cartridge base just ahead of the extractor-groove bevel for the second measurement?

I don’t know how the headstamp is applied, but the font and letter spacing are identical to a photo I have from an unknown source - can’t even tell if it is a brass case or aluminum and, could even be the cartridge shown from Engel, although it is not the same photo. The one I have is black and white. Further, the font and spacing appear to be identical to the picture in the article by Dwight Jackson in IAA Journal 487, which is definitely an aluminum-case round.

“The plot thickens,” as they say.

Thanks for the research and posting.

John M.

John
I think that is a link Brian posted from Vic’s sale so those measurements & photo were what Vic listed in his sale.

Thanks Pete. Actually, I already went to that page and printed it out to add to my .58 White file. I appreciate the comment though, as you are right, they are probably not Brian’s measurements. To me, “rim” and “head” are synonymous and the portion of the case just about the extractor groove an bevel is the cartridge base. Hence the term “Headstamp.”

John

John,

Sorry for any confusion. Pete is correct what I posted is a direct link to Vic’s online auction from January of this year. The cartridge measurements shown are from the auction page.

Brian

The only confusion was on the part of the little old fat man, John Moss, my friend. You need not apologize. I am sorry I confused that!

John Moss

The .58 Auto was made with both aluminum and brass cases (confirmed by Mark White).

He is currenlty working on a “whisper” type case for subsonic loads, like those made by Samereier and others in the past, but meant to be used with a sound supressor. Cases are made of aluminum and loaded with less than 2 gr of powder and a 150 gr bullet.

This is the design patent granted last December: USD868931 - Low Volume Subsonic Bullet Cartridge Case.pdf (137.5 KB)

Regards,

Fede

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