58 White


#1

Two different cases :
short one (24.80 mm)
long one (26.90 mm)
Both hstped : WHITE 58 Auto

Used in a silenced weapon, manufacture stopped because this caliber is forbidden in USA (they call that a destructive device because the caliber is bigger than .50)

The trial model had a lead bullet with Aluminium tip.
JP


#2

Interesting. The cartridge was mentioned in an old issue of “Machine Gun News,” but at the time it appeared to be just a concept cartridge with no corresponding firearm. It was designed by Mark White of Sound Technologies, a US Class II manufacturer specializing in sound suppressors. The idea was that if you are going to use a subsonic cartridge, it might as well use the largest diameter projectile possible. Obviously, the large caliber runs afoul of Destructive Device regulations, but ownership of a DD in the US is possible, just like sound suppressors, short barreled rifles/shotguns, and machine guns. With the proper Federal paperwork, local law enforcement approval, background check, and $200 tax stamp (per item), you can acquire any of the above items where state and local law allows.


#3

Yes you are perfectly right.
I do not remember if it was a handgun or a riffle. (A riffle I think)

Of course it is better to use the biggest diameter caliber when you use subsonics loads because :

  • biggest is the caliber, biggest is the hole (and therefore the chance to touch a vital part and to make the most important bleeding)
  • at the same speed (wich much be kept smaller than the sound speed) you have a biggest momentum (P= M * V, M being the mass and V the velocity) with the heaviest bullet (easier to make with a big diameter when you use only lead).

Mark White was one part of the time in Alaska and other part I do not remember,perhaps in Arkansas, where I went two times to visit Al Paulson to make trials with suppressors.
I am pretty sure the article in Machine Gun News was written by Al.

Of course you can apply for a DD license, but all the troubles (paperwork, fingerprints, tax, state and local laws and so on) imply you will have a smaller market.
I think it is the reason why Mark White cancelled the project.
Anyway he was more specialized in 22 suppressed rifles.

JP


#4

Interesting cartridge.
Could you post the cartridge dimensions please.

Thanks in advance,

Brian


#5

In my file on this caliber, I have an article from the “Machine Gun News,” Volume 6 No. 2, July 1992, pages 25-28, basically on Mark White and his Suppressed .45 caliber carbine. The article is by someone named Al Paulson, who I do not know. It seems that Mr. Paulson visited Mark White, judging from the photos in the article. Since he personally interviewed Mr. White, I have no reason to challenge the accuracy of the article. Towards the end of the article, the following appears:

“White has developed an interesting 58 caliber subsonic PISTOL round (inspired by the .45 ACP) to push a 550 grain lead bullet of unusual design. The front of the pojectile is lightly dished with sharp edges. Back in the days of armored knights, crossbow bolts were designed with broadheads ending in a similar blunt design with sharp edges, rather than points. These specialized bolts would bite into a knight’s armor rather than glance off when impact was other than 90 degrees. Much later, when whalers began to kill whales with explosive projectiles, this blunt design with sharp edges reappeared for the same reason. Mark is awaiting approval from BATF to begin making these rounds and firearms for them…” The .58 White cartridge, with aluminum case, is pictured in the article.

So, it seems the .58 White Auto was, at least originally, intended for a pistol rather than for a rifle or carbine.

Hope this is of some interest and assistance.

John Moss


#6

[quote=“JohnMoss”]So, it seems the .58 White Auto was, at least originally, intended for a pistol rather than for a rifle or carbine.

John Moss[/quote]
Yes you are right, I checked my notes to day (more than 10 years old).
I told you I was not sure if it was for a rifle or a hand gun.

Al Paulson is very well known in the suppressors field !!
He is the only independant guy testing suppressors in the USA, and a very honnest person and this is good when you see the junk with false advertising sold by most US manufacturers (false sound attenuation, bullet touching inside the suppressor and so on).

This is coming from the fact owning them is very restrictive, it is like a myth, the prices are very high (difficult for a buyer to make comparaisons) and so on, therefore manufacturers take advantage of that and most of them are very poorly manufactured.

(In France you can get the same silencer sold in the US for 600 or more (plus tax + paperwork) for only 40 and not even have to show some ID. Therefore you can buy a lot of them, test them at the range, make easy comparaisons with others owned by you or some friends and so on. It is not the case in the US).

Only a few US suppressors manufacters are serious : Phil Dater, Knight for example. Plus a few others I am not allowed to give their name here because they work only on special orders from Army.

Al Paulson wrote a lot of articles on them in MG News, Soldier of Fortune aso.
He made two books on suppressors.
He is also writting articles on SMG.

I am very surprised you do not know Al, John !
You and him know the same, I will not say friends for some of them , people , like Doctor Falker or Peter K. . LOL !!

I will try to post the first 58 White round if I find the drawing. (I do not have the round anymore, somebody to whom you cannot refuse wanted it; lol !)

JP


#7

here is the drawing of the two rounds (to see measurements) and cavity of the bullet
JP


#8

There are a lot of people I don’t know in the firearms thing. Many of the ones I knew well are gone now, and others worked in fields like suppressors and MGs where due to living in California, I had no occasion to meet them nor any particular reason to engage them in correspondence.

I knew Marty Fackler very well, and visited the LAIR Lab on several occasions. Marty has kind of disappeared from the scene the last few years.
I met Peter Kokalis twice - once at a cartridge show and once at the LAIR Lab, but I can’t say that I really knew him. We talked a lot about wound ballistics, and along with Marty and Gary Roberts, had lunch together, but that was the extent of it. I doubt that he would remember me.

Remember, my friend, I was just a manager in a gun shop - I was never a “big shot” in the firearms and ammunition industry or anything to do with it. It is a funny industry anyway. When our store was open, at the SHOT show all the companies wanted to talk to me. After the store closed, I still went to the SHOT show, but all of a sudden, no one knew me anymore. Interesting, and understandable. I went as Press representing IAA, and they knew there was no money in talking to me. A couple of companies wouldn’t even give me a catalog. Its all about the bottom line.

I never went to the SHOT Show as “Press” again. If you are not a well-known writer with some popular-press gun magazine, they want nothing to do with you. I have written as many articles as many of them have, but have preferred since I became involved in cartridge collecting to give them to the various Association Journals and Bulletins, rather than try to sell them to magtazines. My articles, for the most part, aren’t “commercial” anyway. I did peddle a few articles to Shooting Times on guns years ago, and one to Gun Digest, but I’d rather spend my research time for our various groups.

Its much more fun jawing with all the guys on the Forum, and much more rewarding putting the articles in our club journals.