6.35mm Frommer


#1

While putting away some 6.35 Browning’s I came across this similar appearing example but with a typical Frommer headstamp. The bullet measures 6.28mm & the case is 15.83mm long. Rim is 7.63mm, head is 7.04mm and the mouth 7.01mm, while the total weight is 81.2 grains. (CN, non-magnetic bullet, brass case & flat brass primer)

Looking through Brandt I see numbers 35, 71, 88 and 122 listed as Frommer rounds. The #35 is for a 6.65 {<-Edited to change 6.35 to 6.65} but the case shown is unheadstamped and much shorter than this.

The two dimensions listed above of the bullet dia. & case length are out of the range Brandt lists for the 6.35 Browning with a .10mm longer case and .28 vs .30mm smaller bullet dia.

So what I want to know, does anyone have other ideas about this?
Apparently the two common Frommer’s the 9 & 7.35 (#'s 71 and 122) were packaged so as to note the intended firearm usage. This, as near as I can find, is not documented, but I may well be wrong about that.

Thanks
Pete


#2

Pete - I have pondered on this question as well. I have tried my
specimen in a little 6.35 mm Beretta I have, made in 1939, and
the slide will close handily on the round, which will come right
out of the chamber with no sticking of the crimped area into the
throat of the barrel. Unfortunately, when a book gives a dimensional
spread, you don’t really know the source of those dimensions, ie:
how many different cartridges were measured, or factory drawings from
how many different plants were examined, to arrive at the spread?
So, in my view, any of these dimensional spreads have to be considered
as approximate. I think that in the absence at the time of SAAMI and CIP,
these older loadings probably have a wider spec-spread than do more
modern loadings of the same cartridge types. I have not proven that to
myself - too lazy I guess and not that great even with a digital caliper. It
is just, as they say, a “gut feeling.”

Other than the 7.65 mm Frommer short, which is a different case type,
the 6.35 mm, 7.65 mm and 9 mm Frommer rounds all seem to be simply
an instance of that company’s choice of nomenclature. I am not even sure
that the belief the are all “verstarkt ladung” (loaded to higher pressures and
velocities than the norm for these case types) is correct.

There was another thread, I believe, on the questions that these cartridges
elicit, not so long ago. I think there was, anyway. Sometimes I confuse
personal discussions by email with what has appeared on the Forum.

I know that in research recently, I gave up the idea of writing an article about
these Frommer “look-alike” cartridges because I could not find enough solid
data to determine if there really was something different about them, other than
headstamps and box labeling, from the normal 6.35, 7.65 and 9 mm Brng Short
cartridges.

I hope your question brings forth some answers from knowledgeable sources that
may have more primary information than you and I have.


#3

Thanks John, I realize & agree with your points of number of examples, & etc & fitting a chamber.

I have no knowledge of the 7,65 and 9 being loaded to a higher pressure, so bow to your experience on that. It could be only packaging or proprietary selling points ie. a story to “buy only from me.” But where did this “information” come from?

Looking in Brandt the last volume (ca 1998) which he did alone & included most of the three previous volumes he does not list or mention a 6.35 Frommer only the 6.65 Frommer which has a shorter case than this being 13.50 - 13.65mm. So it seems I’m asking about your mention of a 6.35mm Frommer (Maybe from my first post in which I made a mistake? 6.35 & not 6.65). Have you seen a box?

So where / with what case type, do you have your example of this filed?

Edited my initial post to change Brandt #35 to 6.65mm


#4

Pete - I really have no information that confirms the story that the Budapest-
headstamped “Frommer” cartridges have an increased-power loading over the
standard 7.65 mm Browning and 9 mm Browning Short, respectively. In fact,
I tend to doubt it. I have a couple of later Budapest boxes, but they both have
the * / * / * / * / headstamp, and not the early headstamped you pictured. I have
a box, received empty, for the "CAL. 9 mm (.380) cartridge. It has a black silhouette
picture of a Frommer “S” pistol on the label, and so marked with the outline of the
pistol. This could be an extension of the caliber marking, but placement would tell
me that the “Frommer D” marking identifies the pistol. This ammo was made at
Fegyvergyar Budapest as well, and I suspect it may have had the F / F-GY / P / BP /
headstamp ammunition in it.

I am not familiar with the 6.65 mm Frommer mentioned as Item 35 (GR 674) P.63 of
the Vol. I Erlmeier-Brandt book, beyond what is written there. They did not even have
a photo of the cartridge, nor did they attempt a drawing of it, which tells me it is likely
that specimens of the cartridge are unknown, much like the 6.33 Mann (item 23 in the
same book) cartridge.

My feeling is that the 6.35 mm, 7.65 mm and 9 mm cartridges with the headstamp pictured
are simply Budapest-made versions of what we call the .25, .32 and .380 auto rounds, but
as I mentioned, I have not found enough substantiating material to make a solid opinion of that
as opposed to the idea that they are a stronger loading. The strongest clue I have as to the
interchangeability of the “7.65 Frommer Long,” as it is sometimes called to differentiate it from
7.65 mm Browning, is an early Hirtenberger box, perhaps old enough to be from the Frommer
era, labeled "25 Kal. 7.65 m/m Patronen fuer Repetierpistolen System: Frommer, Steyr und
Browning. Note that Frommer and Steyr were both brands during the Austro-Hungarian Empire,
and that the initial name of the 7.65 x 17 was “7.65 mm Browning,” It seems no accident that
the FN-Browning metric designation is mentioned along with Austro-Hungarian products, but that
no other brands of pistols are mentioned. That label would indicate complete interchangeability
between 7.65 x 17 pistols, regardless of brand (ie: Frommer).

We need plenty more information, primarily ballistic data, than we seem to have, if this is ever
to be figured out. Either that, or period literature from Budapest that indicates the Frommer-series
of cartridges are, indeed, separate and different from the Browning Series.

We don’t include here, of course, the 7.65 Frommer M.1901 cartridge, also referred to sometimes
as 7.65 mm Frommer Kurz. That is a unique Frommer cartridge designed specifically for their
1901 Pistol, and later copied c.1905 for the Roth-Sauer Pistol, although once again, there is information
that the Sauer loading was weaker. Solid, scholarly, definitive information may be around that proves
that, but I have only seen anecdotal evidence that there was any real difference in the two.

Wish I had the means to properly research this, but I don’t. I exhausted my own efforts years ago on this
subject with complete dissatisfaction of the results.

In answer to your question of where I have the cartridge in question filed in my own collection, I have it filed
with the rest of my 6.35 mm Browning cartridges. The same with my 7.65 x 17 mm rounds with the
Budapest headstamp. I don’t recall at the moment, but the 9 mm version (.380 Auto case type) may be
separated, as for as long as I have collected cartridges, the common wisdom has been that the 9 mm
version was a separate loading suitable only for the Frommer series of pistols. If I find I am right about where
I have put them, and remember, I will move them to my normal .380 Auto collection. I am not saying that is
correct with any of the three, only that I have found no convincing evidence on my own that any of them are
different in any way that demands classification as a separate cartridge type.

John Moss


#5

Hi John
I’ve sent you PM including a photo of the #35 page in Brandt as it shows the ctg & measurements.

Thanks very much for your valued input on this. So it seems I too must wait for something valid to turn up regarding the power levels and perhaps a box label noting these were only for use in the Frommer S.

It sure would be nice if it was known just where this information / story or theory about higher power originated.

In the mean time I’ll also put it with my other 6.35’s


#6

Pete - I’ll look for your email, but I have all three volumes of Erlmeier-Brandt,
two sets - one for upstairs and one for downstairs - plus the newer combined
edition with only Brandt’s name as author. A few editions, but unfortunately,
none of the errors corrected even though he had some good suggestions from
other collectors. A shame, as it could have been a great update.

My original Volume I is falling apart from use. The Volume II on inch-measurement
cartridges doesn’t get as much use, of course, since as an American collector,
I have a lot of more in-depth resources in my library on that stuff.

My discussion about problems with measurement spreads was based on those
books, as well as other sources. The spreads are very useful, but aren’t etched
in stone by the finger of the Cartridge God. Cartridges slightly outside of their
limits, especially in older ammunition, are sometimes found. The Frommer-Budapest
series pose a special problem in that they are not actually caliber-marked.

Well, if we had all the answers, it probably wouldn’t be fun anymore. The cartridges,
once acquired, sit in a cabinet, occasionally handled or looked at, whereas the
Research and the materials that are used for that research go on and on and on.
Not all the answers are there, but for some of us, it is more fun looking for that elusive
little fact about something than is the collecting of the cartridges themselves.

John M.


#7

Hi Pete and John,

Below you can see a picture of the box for the 6.35x15SR cartridge headstamped F. F-GY P. BP. that shows the profile of the Frommer Liliput (L) pistol. I think that if this cartridge was more common or widely known because of a book, it would be called a 6.35 mm Frommer by cartridge collectors. However, it is not, and there is not much information written about it.

I think that it’s up to you to call it a 6.35 mm Frommer or a 6.35 mm Browning with “Frommer headstamp”. The same could apply to cartridges headstamped * / * / * / * /, because they can be found packed in boxes showing the drawing of a Frommer Liliput pistol.

Regards,

Fede


#8

VERY NEAT !

THANKS Fede

John
I too have found mistakes in Brandt, not to take anything away from all three of the gentlemen who created and modified it. After all nothing is perfect (except maybe me?)

Your right about the spreads, & books do provide a great starting point but sometimes don’t have complete answers.

Thanks again, both of you.

I am now going to consider my example a 6.35mm Frommer.

Is this forum great or what !


#9

Fede and Pete - that is the same box-label design I have, and that I
described on this thread. However, the “FROMMER L” (“S” on mine
for the 9 mm (.380) marking is totally within the borders of the shadow-picture of the
pistol. The actual caliber marking says “Cal.6.35 mm (.25)”, the standard
metric and in dimensions used to describe what we call in America the .25
Auto (modern) or .25 CAPH or ACP (older usage). The 9 mm (.380) box I
described does the same with the caliber description.

It stands to reason that Feg. would tout their own pistol on these box labels.

I will keep my 6.35 mm with Budapest headstamp in my .25 Autos. These labels
to me provide more evidence that the cartridges were NOT different, than they do
that they were different, in my opinion.

It reminds me of the box labels for the 9 mm Largo cartridges that describe the
contents as “Cartuchos para pistola Campo-Giro de 9 m/m mod. 1913.” That is
often taken as evidence of the existence of a cartridge of caliber 9 m/m Campo-
Giro, but that is not what the box says. It says only that the cartridges are for
the Camp-Giro Model 1913 of 9 m/m caliber. Since the 9 mm Largo (basically
the 9 mm Bergmann-Bayard) was adopted earlier than that year, it stands to reason
that these pistols were made for the existing 9 mm Largo cartridge. Again, my
opinion.

Now, the box for the 1901 short-case 7.65 mm cartridge, of the same sort of label design
as the other boxes discussed or shown here, with a shadow-picture of the 1901 Frommer
pistol, but in a little difference format and with no ammo maker’s name on the box, is a
whole different case. Over the drawing of the pistol it says "CAL: 7.65m/m FROMMER."
The ammunition in the box is with the same Budapest headstamp described in this thread
for the other calibers. That marking is quite definitive that the caliber is 7.65 mm Frommer!
It is not on the other boxes pictured and described.

Like I say, there is plenty to be learned about these rounds yet, and without factory-produced
ballistics, or the like, it will remain a matter of speculation, personal interpretation of the labels,
and personal choice how to classify these interesting rounds.

Sorry I can’t do pictures. Both my scanner and my D80 Nikon are malfunctioning. Going to try
to find a shop that can repair the Nikon. Found out when it happened that my favorite camera
shop, with a good repair department, shut its doors in October last.

By the way, since we have now seen the box label for the 6.35 mm (Thanks again Fede - great label!),
I think for the sake of future searches of the Forum, the title of this thread should be changed to
"6.35 mm Frommer?" One thing is certain, and that is the cartridge was designated “6.35 mm” and
not “6.28 mm.”

John Moss

John Moss


#10

John, done


#11

Well, I found I am not through here yet. I decided to give up, for
now, the search about Frommer cartridges in my ammunition library,
and went to the gun section. As I have always said, it is patently
impossible, in any scholarly research, to separate the subjects of
guns and the ammunition for them. You can center the research on
either field, but to do so, it is really often necessary to do that
research in both fields

Reference: “Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole, Repetier- und
Selbstladepistolen in Oesterreichische-Ungarn 1884 bis 1918,
Oesterreichische Pistolen, Band I,” by Josef Moetz and Joschi
Schuy, page 639. (This is a key page for the cartridge descriptions.
The entire section on Frommer Patent firearms is worth a look see.

In Block form, there are two data tables for the “7.65 mm Frommer
Lang” cartridge and the “9 mm Frommer” cartridge.

Kalibertabelle 24 (Caliber Table 24) - 7.65 Frommer Long
Andere Bezeichnungen (other designations): GR 619/562, 7.65 Frommer, 7.8 x 17.5;
7.65 Browning, .32 ACP. (EMPHASIS ON THE LAST TWO DESIGNATIONS FOR
THIS CARTRIDGE).

Kalibertabelle 25 - 9 mm Frommer
Andere Bezeichnungen: GR 929/1220, EB 122, 9 x 17, 9mm Browning Kurz,
.380 ACP (AGAIN, EMPHASIS ON THE LAST TWO DESIGNATIONS).

Each table has only one set of ballistic and physical cartridge measurements
to cover all these designations.

This same page, 639) has photos of the two cartridges as well as pictures of
a “Cal. 7.65 mm (.32) Frommer B” and “Cal. 9 mm (.380 Frommer S” as well
as a 15 round box with the same basic label for the 9 mm round).

These tables would indicate to me that the 7.65 Frommer Lang and the 9 mm
Frommer are simply additional names for the .32 Auto and .380 Auto cartridges.

This is backed up by a picture of and specifications sheet for the Frommer Baby-Pistole,
on which the calibers listed are simply "Kal. 7.65 mm (.32) und 9 mm (.380). No use
of the word Frommer after the caliber designations.

In this work, I could find not mention of a 6.35 mm Frommer Pistol, but then perhaps that
came after the closing date of the material, 1918. Unfortunately, I do not have volume
II of this fine book. (Only disadvantage for many is that it is entirely in the German
Language. I don’t read German well, but can handle tables and some picture captions
if they are not too involved, but I still find this book valuable.

I should add that the S on the box labels obviously stands for “Stop” and the “B” stands for
Baby. The “L” on the 25 caliber box label had me stumped, but in the above book there is
a passage on page 650, which is in the section on Frommer, that reads: “Als Ersatz bachte FROMMER
spaeter in der Zwischenkriegszeit das Modell LILIPUT im Kal. 6.35 mm auf den Markt.” My
very bad knowledge of German does not allow me to make sense of that passage, but it would
put a meaning, perhaps, of “Liliput” to the “L” on the 6.35 mm box. Perhaps one of our German-
language speaking friends could help us with that??? One of the questions, of course, is that
cartridge box label with the “L” as the model also depicts a typical Frommer pistol. Now, if they
later made a Frommer Baby in 6.35 mm and called it the Liliput, that would solve the question, but
there is a Liliput Pistol that came in both 4.25 mm and 6.35 mm, but the outline of the pistol
looks nothing like a Frommer Baby.

John Moss


#12

John
In this link there is a FEG Frommer Liliput 6.35mm Pistol and info on what they call a Frommer cartridge. They refer to the cartridge as a 6.35x17 Frommer (.25 ACP loaded hot).
Not sure if this helps

http://www.hungariae.com/FromLili.htm

Curtis


#13

Curtis - that is very helpful for me regarding the pistol itself, and it is
exactly what I thought the case would be, and that is that the pistol
is later than the period covered by the book I referenced.

Regarding the cartridge, which they class as the “6.35 x 17 Frommer
(.25 ACP loaded hot),” it is another case of confusing information with
no source listed for that site’s opinion. The box they show (wish it was
mine) for cartridges once again simply calls the cartridge "CAL. 6.35m/m"
with no mention of “Frommer” in regard to the cartridge’s designation.

To compound the above, after saying it is “loaded hot” the figures they
show are tepid compared to published ballistics for the standard .25
A.C.P. cartridge. They show the 6.35 Frommer with a MV of 200m/s
(658 fps). I will quote two other sources, picked simply because they
are sitting on my desk here:

"Centerfire American and British Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Cartridges,“
by H.P. White and B.D. Munhall, 1st Edition 1950, page 20:
MV: 820 FPS (U.S. Commercial Standard in a 2” barrel).

“Fiocchi Catalogo Munizioni 2017” page 37:
Velocity V25 (m/s): 230 (equal to 754 fps) Note: The smaller print "25"
after the “V” for “Velocity” is very hard to read, and may actually be “2.5”

You can see that both an older figure and a very current one are much
"hotter" than that shown on that website.

That would indicate, if the figures are accurate, that this cartridge, if it
is indeed a special “Frommer Ladung” is LESS powerful than a standard
6.35 mm Browning, not “hotter” as seems to be the accepted “fact.”

Confusing in the extreme. Again, that’s why we need much more research
in this area, but I think it would have to be done in Europe, as the Frommer
pistols never reached any commercial success in the USA, if in fact, they
were ever imported here at all other than as war souvenirs. So, there is little
hope of finding much information on the ammo from any “official” archive of
any sort.

John Moss