6.5 Arisaka by Kynoch


#1

Here’s a picture of a stripper clip pf 6.5 Arisaka made by Kynoch in 1916. The headstamp is K 16; the stripper clip is stamped KYNOCH. I also have these cartridges headstamped K 16 II and K 17 II. Does anyone have a picture of the box these would have been in?


Ww1 Austrian?
#2

Guy, I assume that these cartridges have been made for imperial Russia. We had in the end of WWI Feodor’s assult rifle using these cartridges.


#3

Pavel,
I’m not sure if these were made for the Russians or for their own use. As I understand, the British also had some Japanese rifles.


#4

Guy, the “KYNOCH” stamped ones were supposedly for the Russians.


#5

Company Kynoch made for Russia not only 7.62x54R cartridges. In beginning WWI Russia has purchased in England and 6.5x50 cartridges. Russia had many rifles 6.5 Arisaka and for them there were not enough cartridges. Therefore I assume that these cartridges could be made for Russia


#6

Britain manufactured 559 million rounds of .256" (6.5mm) Arisaka ammunition between February 1916 and October 1917, virtually all of which was for Russia. Some would have been for the UK but by late 1916 there were hardly any Arisakas left in British service.

The rounds were made by Kynoch and Royal laboratory, the latter being unheadstamped but very recognisable by the small copper cap, often slightly off centre.

The ammunition was packed in 15 round boxes, 600 rounds to a wooden crate.

Regards
TonyE

PS For the full story of the British Arisakas and their ammo, buy my book. PM for details.


#7

Thanks all for the clarification.


#8

Just to add a bit of further information (from TonyE’s book!): the reason that the old-fashioned Type 30 round-nosed loading was made for Russia is probably because the rifles supplied to them by Japan were old ones with sights matching the ballistics of that round. By that time, the Japanese were using the more modern Type 38 loading of 1905 which fired a lighter, pointed bullet at a higher velocity. The British Arisakas also used the Type 38.


#9

Just a quick question on the British rifles. Who used them?


#10

Following Churchill’s directive of November 1914 the Royal Navy gave up their .303 rifles to the army and re-equipped with .256 Arisakas. These were in turn replaced by Ross rifles later on.

The remaining Arisakas, about 100,000, were used for training by the Territoroal Force and the Kitchener New Armies.

By the end of 1915 most were withdrawn and sent to Russia. 80,000 had been sent by January 1916 and the rest soon followed.

The book gives far more details of the rifles, ammunition and accoutrements.

Regards
TonyE


#11

Thanks for that Tony, its very interesting. Did any find their way to the front? Kitchener’s second army, including my grandfather were in the trenches by 1915 in time for Loos.


#12

No, they were never issued as front line weapons. However, they were used by the Royal Navy on active service for boarding enemy vessels or blockade runners.

I shall be at Loos this weekend with the Durand Group reconnoitering some of the fighting tunnels under the battlefield for a French archeological organisation.

Regards
TonyE


#13

Tony
Have a good time at Loos. If you get a chance could you do me a little favour. As you will no doubt be talking with the local enthusiasts. Could you enquire whether anyone has ever found any Dum Dum headstamped cases or live rounds on the battlefield? The area I am particularly interested in would be the trenches to the north of the canal bridge where the Indian Division was deployed during the battle.

Thanks
Vince


#14

I will certainly ask Vince, but I am not convinced that the Indinan division would have brought their own ammunition with them rather than just plugging in to the existing supply system.

The Indians arrived with SMLEs and CLLEs sighted for Mark VI ammunition and I believe they had to exchange these for rifles sighted for Mark VII. If this is so then they would not have used Indian ammunition since Dum Dum never made Mark VII and Kirkee did not switch to Mark VII until mid 1918.

Regards
TonyE


#15

I have these box for Kynoch cartridges. The story with the box is:
In 1WW a traveling show of captured arms,artillery and ammo was collected and moved to
several towns. In 1935 it was still complete and stored in the new Military museum in Rastatt.
There it survived the war and parts are still there today. Arround 1990 the ammo was sold, because the museum where no longer allowed to store ammunition. The ammo was in wonderful wooden show cases, fastened on small cardboard holders. These had strange patterns- similar to the back of poker cards. Short all would be dismantled and boxes and ammo sold. These box should be captured from russian troops and it would noted on an label that the russians are not able to make enouth own ammunition. I was able to bought this box and wonder about the white adhesive tape- but it seems to be original. somebody wrote Japan on it with a pen.

.


#16

Very interesting. The white tape is original - see the picture I posted previously.

Regards
TonyE


#17

Hello,

I have a German Drilling gun from the 1920’s 1930’s and i am trying to
figure out the riffling.

The numbers on bottom of the barrel for the riffling are faded.

What I can make out is 6,5mm (this is what the top number looks
like).
The bottom number is hard to make out the first number may be a 5 or
it may not. The second bottom number may be an 8 or a 6 or a 0 or a 3
or a 5 (all i can make out is the bottom half of the numbers) . What
is clear on the bottom number is that at the end of the second number
it has “1/2” marked (a small
number 1 over a small number 2).
Also the S.t.m.G is 8gr.
the shotgun barrels are 16g. 2.5"

I intend to get a casting done by a gunsmith to determine caliber,
however I would like thoughts on what this caliber may be.
Any thoughts you may provide would be
greatly appreciated.

Thank you
James

PBM


#18

You can do a pretty good impromptu chamber casting using “bluetack” I don’t know if its known by that name where you are but its the blue “chewing gum” that is used to stick notices on walls.

Its not as good as a proper casting but you can get a fairly good picture of whats inside and take a few measurements.


#19

Your 6,5 Drilling cartridge ( “6,5mm” with an 8 gram ( approx 130 grain projectile)–" StMG" Stahl mantel geschoss ( Steel jacketed Bullet) Proofing. The other figures will indicate the “powder load”. ( in grams “Gw Bl P” ( Gewehr Blattchen Pulvewr ( Rifle Flake Powder) as required by the then current German proof Laws.
No actual indication of the Cartridge name is given, but a gunsmith (in Germany) from these details of the proof marks, can work out which of the drilling cartridges it is.

I would assume it is a 6,5x58R Sauer or very similar case, or even a 6,5x57R ( different Body diameters, thus different load density )–the Sauer is slimmer ( like a .30/30).

Do a chamber cast ( Blue-tac is too messy and deformable,) use candle wax, melted in a Bain marie ( in a pot placed in a pot of boiling water), and remember to put a plug in the rifled section…pour in the wax, allow ro set, and push out with a calibre sized dowel ( 1/4 inch rod).

Dies are available for both types of Drilling cartridge (RCBS) and they are relatively Low pressure.( compared to Bolt action cartridges of the same capacity)

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

BTW, who made the drilling ?Sauer perhaps, etc???


#20

Are there any labels known from box or case ?