6.5 Bergmann "Changed Address" DWM box

Pictured below is a 6.5 mm Bergmann No. 3 box. It is interesting on several different levels. Firstly, it is the only DWM box I have in my collection which has an address over-label. The added strip translated is “Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie- Werke Aktien-Gesellschaft, formerly Deutsche Waffen - und Munitionsfabriken, Karlsruhe.” This seems to indicate that the box was either used much later than its original fabrication, or that unsold stocks of this ammunition were over-labeled with the current address and sold some time after the ammuntion was made.

The box has a code of sorts on the back. However, it is unusual in that it is circled by a large oval. The code is U 862. I am assuming from recent threads on the subject that this is a date code. Perhaps someone can tell us what it represents?

The box has two rubber stamps on one side. First applied is a large oval almost identical to that which surrounds the code on the bottom of the box, but with a lot of printing in it. Unfortunately, it is totally illegible. The second stamp mere says, in Spanish, “Manufacturado en Alemania” (Manufactured in Germany). I have this same, latter stamp on a DWM 7.65 Parabellum (Case Number 471) box with a date code of 208 R V.

On the Bergmann box is the description N°3 S.12. I know what the N°3 means - Bergmann assigned numbers to each of their case types. However, I do not know What “S.12.” indicates. Can anyone tell us that.

The Spanish-language stamp “Manufacturado en Alemania” was likely applied in Argentina.

Edit: I forgot to mention that of seven more Bergmann Boxes in the collection, four of which are from DWM (although is is clear that the Bergmann Company was responsible for the design of most of the Bergmann Cartridge boxes), that the box pictured is the only one that has any sort of code marking on the box. That, along with the oval surrounding the number, leads me to believe that marking might have been applied in Argentina.

2nd Edit: Change the erroneously typed word “labels” in the first sentence of the thread, to the correct word “levels” which it was intended to be.

John Moss

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That is a cool box, thanks for sharing.
I wish modern manufacturers would put out boxes with similar stylish designs!

BKIW was the Versailles successor to ammo production of
DWM ( 1920s).
So all sales had to carry the New corporate description.
Nice example…I would think either old stock of ammo/ packets likely.
Doc AV

John,

If I read the book „50 Jahre Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken“ from 1939 there is written on page 141;
On 29 July 1933 the name Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werke A.-G. is changed to; Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werke A.-G. formal Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken.

This means, the sticker must be placed on the box after 1933.

Dutch - thank you. I had that information but simply forgot to include a potential date. I got fixated on the code on the back of the box, which seems to be a date code, but that would be very atypical for a DWM Bergmann cartridge box, at least based on the 7 or 8 that I have.

It is the only DWM box I have ever seen with the factory designation changed on the box with a glued on strip. If anyone else has this on any DWM box, I would be interested to hear about it.

I also would like to know the meaning of the “S.12.” marking that appears after Bergmann’s Cartridge Number, “N°3”, on the label.

John Moss

John: in the ammunition section of R.K. Wilson’s Textbook of automatic pistols (pub date 1943; text written in the mid 1930s) Gerald Burrard states that 6.5 m/m
Bergmann ammunition was available from BKIW in “fresh condition”. He says much the same of the 5 m/m Bergmann and the 8 m/m Bergmann Simplex. Jack

The designation change date mentioned in the DWM book is not correct, because the sentence “früher Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken” was used by BKIW since it was established in 1922. We discussed this before in recent threads about DWM box dating.

@Jack All three cartridges mentioned were available from Stoeger until 1939.

John,
On the Bergmann 6.5 mm box mark No. 3S 13 that I have handled are steel (magnetic) therefore are stahl identified by the letter S; while the box marked No.3 B 12 13 are lead or Blei in Germann language
The number 13 stands rimless and the number 12 is for rimmed.
This information is from seeing and removing cartridges from their respective boxes.
JALLEY

Gentlemen,
according to the cited book, DWM on 30 May 1922 changed its registered name (the German legal term for this is “Firma”) to “Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werke A.G.”
The change on 29 Jun 1933 mentioned by Dutch had the effect of officially adding “vormals D… W… M…” to the registered name. “Vormals” means formerly, just as “früher”. But after this change, BKIW was by law required to use the “vormals” version in all its business proceedings, because that was its registered name.
Therefore, the “früher” label can be dated from between mid-1922 to mid-1933.
The registered name was changed back to DWM on 30 Jun 1936.

Although BKIW started in 1922 and the official name was changed in June 1933 from BKIW to BKIW Vormals DWM, this company always used “BKIW-früher-DWM”. or “Vorm.”/“Vormals” in their title.
ie. from WW1-WW2 they always included the “DWM” title in their products (boxes, cases) and publications (Ads, catalogs etc).

This company always marked it’s standard sporting rifle boxes from 1922-1933 with either:

BERLIN-KARLSRUHER INDUSTRIE-WERKE AG früher DEUTSCHE WAFFEN UND MUNITIONSFABRIKEN (Standard 10 round boxes) or
BERLIN-KARLSRUHER INDUSTRIE-WERKE AG vorm. DEUTSCHE WAFFEN UND MUNITIONSFABRIKEN (standard 20 round boxes)

This is confirmed from both box date codes and HS date codes.

In 1933 a new standard 10 round box format was used and the “Vorm.” was used (ie it replaced “früher” as you would expect). There are some other scarcer box formats some using “Vorm.” others using “früher” but it does appear that from 1933 the standard marking was “Vorm.”. However, some older “früher” marked boxes did seem to use post 1933 date codes but this is likely use of older stocks.

I hope this isn’t too confusing !!!

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Guys - thank you. Lots of good information here from all of you. Think you all filled in all the empty spaces, answering all my questions. I appreciate it. It amazes even me how ignorant I am on some aspects of my 55 year study of auto pistol ammunition.

Thanks again :-) !!!

John

Jack,

  thanks for that information.  I will check it out in my copy of

Wilson’s book, one of the first gun books I bought, after “Small
Arms of the World.” Bought my first one of those when I was about
9 years old. My mother had to go with me, because the gun shop I
bought it at would not sell anything to a kid that young, I guess
wanting to be sure that he had has parents permission to spend the
whopping 3 or 4 dollars it was then.

  Of course, the statement about "fresh ammunition" depends on

one’s definition of “fresh.” :-)

John M.

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Jalley - after doing a little more looking in my collection, I am not sure of the identification of the numbers 12 and 13 on Bergmann Box Labels. The DWM box I previously pictured on this thread is S.12. Below is a box label marked S.13 from Keller and Company (headstamp of cartridge: * / H / * / K&C /, CNCS FMJ RN bullet, brass case and brass primer. The case is with rim and extractor groove, as were the K DWM K 413A rounds in the DWM box previously shown. You can see clearly, and I am sure you know this, that the labels were obviously designed by Bergmann’s Jdustriewerke (I have used the “J” as that’s how it appears on the boxes, since the DWM and the Keller box labels are almost identical. The wording including the S.12. and S.13. dot I assume were Bergmann’s as well since they appear in identical form from two different makers.

The Keller and Company box, if the “12” was for rimmed and the “13” for rimless-grooveless, should have had rimless-grooveless cartridges, but it did not, and it was full when I got it. I reduced it to one round in keeping with my general practice with boxes (I made some nice trades over the years with the excess cartridges, as well as gave some away. I no longer have any in my dupes). I got the box about 40 years ago, by the way.

So, in this case, it did not work out that the 12 and 13 signified the the two different types of 6.5 Bergmann cartridge, the Model 1894 and the Model 1896.

John Moss

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John
I am very appreciative for you pointing out the J instead of an I as the first letter in Industriewerke. After checking Bergmann Industriewerke letter heads, the first letter in industriewerke is some is shown as an I and in others what looks to be a J. Just guessing the J is just a fancy I that the printer used.
The Bergmann’s Industriewerke logo I would believe appeared after 1894 when Theodor Bergmann left the firm Eissenwerke Gaggen where he was the majority share holder. John, could a switch between the two no. 3 cartridges and boxes have occurs over the years?
Jalley

The J for I matter has been discussed before on this forum and one contributor kindly pointed out that even in old English prints one can find J being used for I.
In Germany, in particular while Fraktur (Gothic) was dominant, it was quite common to print, for example Jnfanterie instead of Infanterie. It was not some fancy by the printer of Bergmann Industriewerke.
In the ammunition field, the commercial name for the German 7.9 mm infantry cartridge chosen in 1926 was 8x57JS, the J explicitly coming from Infanterie. I never heard the J pronounced other than as letter I. In 1983 CIP decided it knew German better than the Germans and the name was officially changed to 8x57IS.

The Companies name was not Eissenwerke Gaggen, but Eisenwerke Gaggenau, and in fact, have nothing to do, with the Pistolfabrication.
After Bergmann went out from Eisenwerke Gaggenau, where he worked from 1880 to the end of 1891 (paid out with 1 million Goldmark), but still finally as Director til 1893. He founded, 1894 the Bergmann Industriewerke Ottenau, situated in Gaggenau…

Dates variating a bit in the different vita from various sources

PP

Forensic,
Thank you for the correction to my spelling of Gaggenau, We are greatly off the subject when we start talking Bergmann Pistol production. If you would like to continue the discussion on Bergmann Pistol production please provide a PM address as I will not put anything about Bergmanns firearms, cars and History on the Foum as it is not the place to discuss these Subjects. Secondly, the material put on this Forum is not priviate but open to the public This was shown when I put on the forum the picture of the Gunther book.
Thank you again for correction to my spelling.
Jalley@zoomtown.com