6.5 Carcano


#1

In which year did this ctge start to be manufactured
Thanks
JP


#2

JP

Do you mean that particular cartridge or the 6.5 cartridge in general?

The 6.5 Carcano was introduced in 1891 with the Model 91 rifle, which facts I’m sure you already know.

I think you are asking about that particular cartridge but I don’t know what that particular cartridge is.

Ray


#3

“Armi Portatile e Munizioni Militari Italiani 1870-1998,” by Ruggero Filippo Pettinelli, shows this cartridge simply as either as the Model 91 or as "il tipo pi


#4

Thanks to both of you
JP


#5

worldwar.it/munizioni/65x52carcanoita/fr.asp

This is a very good article on 6,5x52 Carcano by Giovanni Defrancisci, where you can find notices about the “cartuccia per tiro ridotto”.
The word “cappellozzo” is not on italian dictionary, and was relative only to this item. In italian, “cappello” is “hat”, and “cappellozzo” sounds like a little strange hat.


#6

‘Little strange hat’ (or cap) does seem appropriate for this odd shaped primer.


#7

What is this thing supposed to be? It looks like a 6.5 Carcano with a bullet made from a .22LR case and an airgun pellet, which it obviously isn’t. But what is it?


#8

Falcon - “Tiro ridotto” is a short-range cartridge.

John Moss


#9

Vittorio - could the term Cappellozzi be interpreted to be "small top hat?"
A “top hat” in English refers to the very high style of hat that was popularly worn with very formal attire. It is the type of hat seen in almost every picture of our Civil War President, Abraham Lincoln.

I should have recognized that the word’s root was in the word for hat. Che stupido sono io!

John Moss


#10

[quote=“JohnMoss”]Falcon - “Tiro ridotto” is a short-range cartridge.

John Moss[/quote]
Cheers John, I didn’t really read the answers properly, so all the talk of primers confused me and I wondered what was actually going on. I now see it as a tubular bullet with what looks to be a lead pellet in the end, which would obviously be a short range cartridge due to the lightness of the bullet. What is the purpose of the “rim” on the tube part of the bullet that I said looked like a .22LR Case?


#11

To clear up some confusion, the ‘jacketed’ portion of the bullet is permanently attached to the case, only the lead nose (‘Palle piombo di ricambio’) is fired down range. The primer is the long ‘top hat’ item just below the cartridge in the catalog illustration. The third cartridge in this picture is one of the Tiro ridotto cartridges, lacking its projectile. Note the deep cannelure at the neck that secures the tubulat bullet jacket to the case.

If anyone has one of the projectiles that is lacking its cartridge and ants to dispose of it, please let me know.


#12

Were these cartridges designed to be reloaded over and over again with new primers and projectiles? How is the primer seated in the case?


#13

[/url]
[/img]
[/url][/img]
This is a first type of “tiro ridotto” 6,5 Carcano with his “cappellozzo”.
The small case was intoduced in the rear of the cartridge and the little 6,5mm. bullet on the top.
Look here:
worldwar.it/munizioni/65x52c … 3222=Vai….


#14

In the sectioned cartidge shown on that website with the small base insert case, was the steel rod between the primer and bullet also fired or did that stay inside the case?


#15

This “cappellozzo” was also used with one of the several reduced ammunition for the MOSCHETTO BALILLA.

Philippe


#16

Does indeed mean “Top Hat” ( Cappello, Hat; Cappellino, Small hat, Cappellozzo “Large Hat (Top hat)”

The term is carried over from the “Top Hat Musket cap” of the 1840s 1870s, which refelcted the “Top hats” of the day.

The “Cappellozzo” of the Cartuccia per Tiro Ridotto" is effectively a Reversed Top hat cap with an extra charge within it, besides the priming compound.

The Cartuccia per Tiro Ridotto ( Saloon cartridge or Zimmer patronen) was assembled on the Austrian “Conus” principle, using either a fabricated cases ( brass cartridge case with inner tube and bored chamber to hold the Propellant charge) or alternately a turned brass or steel “Faux-cartouche” to hold the charge and pellet.
I have seen one of these steel (Commercial) items, with a M1867 Werndl converted to 6,5 Italian, in possession of a Now deceased family friend, in Italy. He also had a tin of pellets and also cappellozzi, made by Fiocchi if I remember rightly (it was back in 1980)

The brass (Army issue) M91 Models were made using recovered brass cases and fitting them with a Bullet “Tube” and boring out the chamber in the head.
The “crimp ring” in the M939 model was to obviate loss of the tube by repeated use, and was designed (I think) for single use only, as it used a standard primer, and not a Capellozzo ( somebody correct me If I am mistaken

A special Pliers type “Reloading tool” was also supplied, with a decapping pin, a Cappellozzo seater, and a Pellet seater. Various of the better books on the M91 Carcano carry detailed pIctures of the accessories.

The Commercial versions also offered what appears to be a Paper shell Cappellozzo, with a somewhat stronger charge than the standard Military brass item.

The Whole Idea was for Indoor traing use, in barracks. Most Traditrional Italian Army barracks had a “Sala da Tiro” (often the Fencing Hall) for the use of such “short range” gallery Practice ( 10-15 metres maximum.)
Backstops consisted of some Hay bales or a pile of sacks or other absorbent materials.

In Winter, the Indoor facilities were much appreciated, especially in the North, where snow could and did fall quite heavily during the Winter Months.

As to Philippe’s reference to the Ballilla Youth carbines, the Cappellozzo was used as a Blank for the smallest Model Ballilla carbine, those used by “entry level” youth ( 6-10 years of age).
The next group (11-14) used a Miniature 6,5mm Ball cartridge ( 6mm, and a cartridge cases effectively a .30 M1 carbine case dimensions necked down…with a Miniature 6 round clip to feed them. )The group also used standard 5,6mm/6mm Flobert (.22 RF) Target rifles.
The 15-18 age group were a mix of the .22 rifles and the full size M91 Cavalry carbine, whilst the 18-20 year old “Avanguardisti” were equipped as the Royal Army.

The 6mm Miniature cartridge and its clip are the rarest Italian Military cartridge and accessories. The carbines are relatively more common.

I have made for my own use, a similar system using other Military case designs ( .30/06, etc, using either a shotshell primer ( 245 magnum) or using a normal primed case, and swaging a thick brass tube inside it, and fitting an appropriate round ball to the (machined) concave end of the “Tube”. Again, a variation of the “Conus” system originally developped by the Austrians as far back as the Wanzl trapdoor rimfire Musket (1867)

An interesting area of research.
Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#17

[/url]
[/img]

courtesy of mr.“Centerfire”- WorldWar forum

In italian the suffix “ozzo” is for “little and squat”


#18

[quote=“DocAV”]The next group (11-14) used a Miniature 6,5mm Ball cartridge ( 6mm, and a cartridge cases effectively a .30 M1 carbine case dimensions necked down…with a Miniature 6 round clip to feed them. )

The 6mm Miniature cartridge and its clip are the rarest Italian Military cartridge and accessories. The carbines are relatively more common.
[/quote]

That sounds like an extremely interesting cartridge/weapon. I have never heard of that before. Would it be possible to make ammunition to shoot one of the carbines if they are more common? How common do you mean? It sounds interesting to shoot. Clips could be a problem though. Can anyone post a photo of the weapon, cartridges or clip?

I know there has been alot of experiments over the years with the .30 M1 necked down to various calibres fired from re-barreled M1 Carbines, especially just after WW2 before cartridges such as .22 and .223 Remington were available as the next step up from the .22 for varmint / small game hunting.


#19

" The 6mm Miniature cartridge and its clip are the rarest Italian Military cartridge and accessories. "

Hi Doc !

Perhaps if we think only ctges.
But there is something rarest among Italian military items.

There is a 6.5 Carcano rifle with a device used to shoot a rifle grenade attached on the right side.

What is funny is the fact you have to take out the bolt of the gun, and to introduce it in the device to shoot the grenade.

A friend of mine has such a gun with the device attached.
I do not remember the name of this device, but many people in this forum know its name I am sure.

The fact is :
All the documents we read telling us which projectile is shot with this device are wrong.
We tried all their suggestions and it is not that !!

Perhaps somebody has the right info ?

JP

IAV Ballistics.[/quote]


#20

The name of the grenade-launching device attached to the right side of the short rifle made specifically for its use was Modello 91/28 Tromboncino, also called Moschetto Modello 91 TS. According to everything I have read, the launching cartridge should be the Cartuccia da Lancio Modello 1910, a rosebud-crimped blank (Cartuchia da Salve) sealed at the nose with parafin, with the same dimensions as the normal 6.5m/m Carcano other than the overall case length, which is slightly shorter. The neck is slightly shorter, probably because of the crimp. My understanding, again from reading sources in the Italian language, in which I am not fluent, is that standard cases were used for loading this round.

If J-P has found that this Model 1910 Grenade Launching cartridge will not fit the chamber, than I am a loss to supply more information, because every source I have for information on Italian ammunition states it is the launching cartridge for the Tromboncino.

Evidently, some Model 38 Cavalry Carbines and M38TS Rifles were also mounted with this device, although they are rare, and one book states that these weapons are often found without the device, and with the stocks, that were inletted for the launcher attachment, with the inletted areas filled in. these were 7.35m/m rifles, but I cannot discern whether the launchers were altered to use with a 7.35m/m grenade blank or that the 6.5m/m was used with them.

References: “Armi Portatili e Munizioni Militari Italiane 1870-1998,” by Ruggero Filippo Pettinelli; “Il 91,” by Gianfranco Simone, Ruggero Belogi and Alessio Grimaldi (the latter an excellent authority on Italian ammunition, now regretably deceased); “The Carcano, Italy’s Rifle,” by Richard Hobbs