My specimen of the type 30 cartridge has a bullet with a CNCS jacket; Ken Elks describes this cartridge as having a CN jacket. Was this cartridge in fact produced with bullets of both types? My round lacks a headstamp and generally looks Japanese as far as base form, primer, etc. are concerned. JG
I have checked mine - the Japanese one is magnetic but I have a very similar one that is Russian manufacture which is not magnetic. It looks virtually identical but has 2 neck stake crimps holding the bullet in. Chinese is also magnetic.
Will, how you know it is Russian?
Same here Will - what makes it Russian? Can you post picture of the propellant? Also Mr Gill - can you post a photo or scan of your 6.5 base - they vary greatly between makers and country’s - so photo or scan is a must for ID. At SLICS this year I picked up a Royal Laboratory 6.5 Jap with CNCS blt alongside a standard CN bulleted example.
Oh me! no way to do images, but I’ll look it over & describe as well as possible, which might at least serve to eliminate some possibilities. Thanks to all for their interest. JG
I have several Type 30 cartridges and all are non-magnetic. I also checked my Kynoch Mark II Type 30s and they are non-magnetic as well.
As I thought about your question it occurred to me, the only magnetic Japanese cartridge in my collection (and I have a variety of types) is the armor piercing 7.7SR Type 92.
Alex - I bought it as a Russian manufactured one - I don’t really know if it is or not. Same as the Japanese one’s , I don’t really know.
John - The bullet is still firmly in the case and staked in - I don’t really want to pull the bullet but I can tell you the case is full of propellant, hardly any loose space in the case.
I too would like to see a picture of your Russian round, Will.
Like John, I have both CN and CNCS bullets in Royal Labotarory unheadstamped rounds. Without a picture, the key identifier for the RL made rounds is the small flat copper primer, often slightly off centre.
This is the RL round.
[quote=“Will REUTER”]Alex - I bought it as a Russian manufactured one - I don’t really know if it is or not. Same as the Japanese one’s , I don’t really know.
John - The bullet is still firmly in the case and staked in - I don’t really want to pull the bullet but I can tell you the case is full of propellant, hardly any loose space in the case.[/quote]
Will, the problem in the past was that even Russian collectors were not able to tell how to identify a Russian made cartridge.
The Russians made 8mm x 50R Mannlicher as well as 6.5mm Jap during WW1. I have a Russian 8mm x 50R Mannlicher - at least I’m convinced I have. No hst - so I pulled the bullet (no marking) and checked the propellant against a contemporary 7.62mm x 54R. They were identical. Hence my query about 6.5 Jap propellants. Regards JohnP-C
The early Japanese propellants I’m familiar with are typical graphited square flakes of the type much used in France and Germany in those days. A point of identification on the 8m/m Mannlicher would be the form of the primer–any made in the Austro-Hungarian empire during the Great War should reveal the center flash-hole rather than twin holes. Twin flash-holes wouldn’t make a cartridge necessarily Russian, but it would, I think, argue against it being Austrian in origin. JG
Russian made 6,5 Arisaka cartridges is a very difficult question. We have no complete answer on it, because main part of Saint-Petersburgs cartridge plant archive was losted in 1918-1919. Existed some samples of this cartridges with a pointed bullet which are slightly different from Japanese specimens. But we can’t confirm that they was made in Russia.
Another question is 8x50R Mannlicher. Russian made cartridges could easily identified by:
- Cupro-nickel envelope of the bullet, instead of steel in Austrian specimens
- Absence of headstamp on the case and bullet bases
- Wide flat primer
- Two flash-holes
- Two typical Russian types of propellant - graphited square flakes (VL powder) or graphited tubes (Dupont powder, then became standard USSR rifle powder WT).
- And, additioanlly, M90 chargers with solid walls.
Treshkin: Was the duPont-type powder actually used in Russian production during World War One or only in ammunition supplied from the U.S. or Great Britain? JG
Of course, during WWI, Russia used Du-Pont powder for loading 7,62x54R cartridges with Bullet L M1908, AP bullet M1916 and 8x50R Mannlicher with Ball bullet.
Treshkin: Thanks for the information about Russia’s use of duPont powder. I’d noticed that in the Soviet period that type was used but didn’t realize its use went back so far. JG