6.5 mm Flobert Rimfires


#1

This thread is an off-shoot of a thread regarding 8mm Floberts.

Jean-Pierre. I mentioned that I have several 6.5 mm Flobert rounds. From your response, you have not seen this round before. Sometime after the end of April I will post pictures of the rounds. However, the following is what I know about them.

There are a number of headstamped 6.5 mm Floberts. These include the raised TB headstamp, the impressed TB headstamp and a recently found KB impressed headstamp (which I don’t have). I also have 2 unheadstamped rounds. These are all extremely rare specimens and hardly ever turn up. It would appear that the most commonly encountered specimens have the raised and impressed TB headstamp.

The bullet diameter is 6.2 to 6.3 mm. The diameter is 6.3 to 6.75 above the rim. The rim Diameter is 7.4 to 7.5mm. Case lenght is 7.4mm on all of the rounds. This is a very distinct cartridge from the 6mm Flobert. However, if you are going through a junk box or looking over specimens on a table, they are easily overlooked (not that there are many on tables).

All of the rims are flat although all of the specimens have an early look about them which you will see when I eventually post some pictures.

Yesterday, I was able to have an xray done on the 8mm rimfire long copper case. It is indeed rimfire! So now we have two distinct case lengths in the 8mm Flobert: 1) the regular flobert specimens with the short case, and 2) the long case 8mm Flobert.

Cheers,
Will.


#2

Hi Will

  1. I have the same round as you have : copper case, raised TB hstp

But I call it : 25 RF unknown origin. Lol !

Always the same reasons :
No trace of it in my flobert files
No conical rim
2) Who is TB ??

  1. Thinking about the 9 mm necked down to 8 mm Flobert I put in the other topic, I am wondering if it is not an handmade manufactured ctge nowadays !!
    Indeed in France, we are the first country where the government is always making new laws and where people always play to by-pass them !
    Due to the fact you need a license to own an handgun and it is not always easy, there were on the market what we call :
    shot handguns (shooting only 9 shot Flobert ctges and not the ball ctges)

If you take such a 9 mm shot revolver you have an steel insert in the barrel and if you try to take it out you must do an accurate job not to destroy it because the outside is usually in soft material.
But if you drill it, even badly, after it is very easy to put a pipe in 8 mm
Same about the cylinder where there is also an insert reducing the diameter.

I know people having converted this kind of guns when they were legal but they never thought to neck down the 9 mm ball Flobert ctge !
It is a very good idea !!

It is perhaps not that, but it could be
JP


#3

Jean-Pierre.

I wish I knew who TB was. It is probably some obscure gun maker in Paris or Antwerp or some such city. The specimens I have are old (1880’s or earlier) by the look of the rims and the general look and configuration of the cartridge. I don’t think they are modern (ie. circa 1900 of later). I call them a Flobert only because they look like a Flobert.

In the other thread, you mentioned that you have seen the guns for larger Flobert cartridges. I have seen cartridges that I believe to be Flobert or Flobert like in 10, 11 and 12mm. They all have a different rim design completely from what we are use to. If I remember correctly (it’s been some years) most of them had the rim going downwards with the case instead of going out from the case (difficult to describe). If I am not mistaken, they are now in Vic Engel’s collection.

When I have access to a digital camera, I will send photo’s of these cartridges and the headstamps also. (It will be at the end of April).

Perhaps we should start digging again through our infomation, and files and catalogues to see what we can find on all of these (6.5, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13?, 14 etc) so called Flobert rounds. I will get working on my end this weekend.

Cheers,
Powdertin

PS. Are you coming to St. Louis next year?


#4

#5

Hi Jean-Piere

I thought the TB was Tardy Blanchard too, but like you, I don’t think so.

My raised headstamp I picked up in Belgium, the impressed in England. The other two rounds came from Chicago ctge show 20 or 25 years ago, and the other from a junk box in the US at a cartridge show about the same time. Other than in collections, I have not seen another since. I think whatever these are, they are very rare. They have a very European appearance. The Canadians, Americans and English made nothing that appears similar at all (perhaps the Enlish, maybe).

I agree with you about obscure gunmakers making their own cartridges. However, in the good old days, the bigger ammunition makers would put whatever headstamp on a cartidge that you wanted if you bought enough or were willing to pay. SFM is a good example of that. They made a very large number of Floberts for everone else with other’s headstamps. Terribly confusing.

I will contact Vic and see if he will photograph these rounds and the rims, if he actually is the current owner. I suspect they are not Floberts but some type of 'Patent" or not patented rimfire type cartridge. The base is similar to a flat based cup fire.

With regards to coming to the Swiss show: I have been a couple of time years ago and have beaten the bushes for rimfires. At the time I was adding Floberts for the most part. I added between 150 and 175 each trip. However, since then, others have been chasing them down and they indicate that they have dried up at the European shows. I am not sure that I would do very well. You never know. In future, I may have to make the shows for other reasons. We will see. However, the Euro is strong against the US$, which favours you coming here!?!

Cheers,
Will.


#6

[quote=“powdertin”]
However, in the good old days, the bigger ammunition makers would put whatever headstamp on a cartidge that you wanted if you bought enough or were willing to pay.

Will.[/quote]

Hi Will,
I agree, therefore the problem is to find who is the RF ammunition subcontractor.
The people in the habit of old RF rounds, like you, surely have an idea, by comparaison of the letters style, of the manufacturer.
Avoid Marcel Gaupillat, Gevelot, Leon Beaux and Bischweiller.

You said that you used to pick up 150 RF ctges at each european trip !!!

How many RF ctges have you in your collection ???
Thousands ??

JP
PS : do you know the 5 mm Hungarian ?


#7

Hi Jean-Pierre

How many rimfires do I have? In Floberts and ‘near Floberts’, I have about 1800. I also like 22’s and have somewhere between 2500 and 3500 different (I lost count a long time ago). I have a medium size collection of big European rimfires ie. 20 Waenzl’s, 20 Millbank-Amslers (many minor variations), 2 Werndls, etc. That doesn’t include the minor collections, ie. 90 500 revolver ctges, etc. Then you get into powdertins, letterhead, books, … I no longer collect US rimfires other than .22’s and the new .17 rimfires.

Luckily, my wife is accepting of all this. I don’t want to change wives since it would take too long to train another one.

Determining who was the manufacturer is difficult (of the TB headstamped rounds). There were a number of small rimfire manufacturers early on and through the late 1900’s. You must remember also that anyone who manufactured percussion caps had most of the machinery to manufacture small rimfire cartridges. All they would need would be a new set of dies, bullets, some powder and people to load and pack, and they were in business.

I am not familiar with the 5mm Hungarian. What is that? Are you familiar with the 5mm Sharps by SFM?

Cheers,
Will.


#8

Hello Will !

  1. Incredible !!
    It means you have a bigger collection than George used to have ???
    Therefore no need for me to try to find you something you don’t have !
    It is a shame because I am looking for US RF ctges to complete my display.

  2. And despite this incredible big collection you have no documentation ???!!!
    No catalogue, no drawing, nothing?

  3. 5 mm Scharps from SFM doesn’t exist.
    I think you are talking about 22 Sharps.
    In the same serie you have also 30 and 32 Sharps.
    They date from 1895.

  4. About the 5 mm Hungarian I doubled check.
    Sorry it is not a RF but a CF !

  5. Gun shows are not the best places to find ctges in France, because even the ones legal to possess without authorisation are most often prohibited by the shows managers.
    Try the flea markets next time you are in France.
    It is a very good place to find staff because people are poorer and poorer (specially since our new president’s election) and they sell all to make money.
    I missed the other day some very old Flobert shotshells with white paper cases (and not carton cases) and Flobert printed on the paper.

JP


#9

Hi Jean-Pierre.

George only had about 1400 at the height of his collecting days. Vic E. on the other hand has about 2000 to 2100. I have about 250 he needs and he has about 400 that I need. So between us, there are probably 2300 to 2400 different! HOWEVER, there are probably another 1000 that neither of us have. These include unknown headstamps that have not surfaced and variations in bullets, blanks, proofs, SC and DC case lengths (Single coulot and double coulot or singe charge and double charge lenths) in shot loads, board dummies, etc.

Keep looking for me! There are many ‘common’ headstamps and loadings that I and Vic are missing. Do you have Vic’s checklist for Floberts from about 1974(?). I have updated it somewhat. If you don’t have a copy, I will send you one. Let me know.

The 5mm Sharps came from a box in George Kass’s collection that was marked as 5mm Sharps cartridge. It is somewhat different from the 22’s of that time period. However, it may have been just a marketing ploy to sell more ammunition (where have we seen that before!!!).

I had the 30 and 32 sharps before I got rid of that end of the collection. They were little different from regular 30 and 32’s of the period. They were from original boxes from the SFM collection. Are they the same period as the 350/9mm Sharps cartridges?

Also, I do have some documentation, although nowhere near what I would like. It’s not that easy to find when your base is in Canada.

I was in the Paris Flea market in August 2006 and found some Floberts there.

Cheers,
Will.


#10

Hello Will

  1. I would like to have the check list, just in case I find some RF on a flea market (because I do not collect variations, only one of each caliber !)
  2. I am interested in seing the box, because the title of the drawing is : 22 Sharps.
  3. Bad for you you got read of your Sharps serie because, like you noticed , they are different than US ones ! You have to find them again now!
  4. without checking deeply the 350/9 Sharps made by SFM is scarce because nobody was using this caliber in France.
    I didn’t find any drawing dated from before 1930
  5. Even based in Frnace , it is difficult to find documentation because most of the people prefer to keep the knowledege for them ! lol!
    Ok, send me please a list of the catalogues or drawings you have, we will trade documentation.
    Cheers
    JP

#11

Jean-Pierre.
Finally, the photo I promised you many months ago…

Note: On the left side is a 6mm Flobert and on the right side is a 7mm Flobert.
Of the 6.5’s, the first two are unheadstamped. The third has the impressed TB, and the forth has the raised TB, the same as your illustrated specimen.


#12

[quote=“powdertin”]Hi Jean-Piere

I thought the TB was Tardy Blanchard too, but like you, I don’t think so.

My raised headstamp I picked up in Belgium, the impressed in England. The other two rounds came from Chicago ctge show 20 or 25 years ago, and the other from a junk box in the US at a cartridge show about the same time. Other than in collections, I have not seen another since. I think whatever these are, they are very rare. They have a very European appearance. The Canadians, Americans and English made nothing that appears similar at all (perhaps the Enlish, maybe).

I agree with you about obscure gunmakers making their own cartridges. However, in the good old days, the bigger ammunition makers would put whatever headstamp on a cartidge that you wanted if you bought enough or were willing to pay. SFM is a good example of that. They made a very large number of Floberts for everone else with other’s headstamps. Terribly confusing.

I will contact Vic and see if he will photograph these rounds and the rims, if he actually is the current owner. I suspect they are not Floberts but some type of 'Patent" or not patented rimfire type cartridge. The base is similar to a flat based cup fire.

With regards to coming to the Swiss show: I have been a couple of time years ago and have beaten the bushes for rimfires. At the time I was adding Floberts for the most part. I added between 150 and 175 each trip. However, since then, others have been chasing them down and they indicate that they have dried up at the European shows. I am not sure that I would do very well. You never know. In future, I may have to make the shows for other reasons. We will see. However, the Euro is strong against the US$, which favours you coming here!?!

Cheers,
Will.[/quote]
Could TB be from Theodor Bergman & Co., Berlin Germany ? Pre 1940. Check out Gracia’s book. M. Rea