I tried that ammo and wrote about it on my website, here: quarry.nildram.co.uk/PDWs.htm
Wow, where can I find a 6.5 x 25 case? Are they available on the civilian market?
I wish there were. There is no way to get them that I know of, and I’ve only ever seen a dummy example at the Woodin Lab. They seem to be about as difficult to come by as Libra Snails.
Not that I know of, Pivi. I have one of each of the rounds (as shown in the photo on my website) but I don’t think that any have been sold to the public.
For the length of time this cartridge has been tinkered with, it is the hardest case type to come by in my memory during 50 years of collecting. Some countries, because of their incredibly strict laws and heavy penalties, have items hard to get - Burma, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, and the like, but this cartridge is among the most difficult. After almost 15 years in existence, I have yet to ever see one round other than in pictures. While the concept is good, I believe it will stay that way. I am surprised it has not completely faded from the scene already. I have not read of any serious use of it anywhere.
It seems like someone could sell replicas if they were to make a few 10s of them from Starline 9mm Win Mag brass. This is if I am correct that the 6.5x25 CBJ, 9x19 Luger and 9x27 head and extractor groove diameters are all similar.
I believe starline make 9mm Win Mag brass in quantities as some of the reenactors in the UK use 9x19 Blanks made from Starline 9mm Win mag brass.
well, looks like I’m the lucky one here
Got my sample several years ago from Sweden, direct from mr.Bertil ohanson, via local gun enthusiast.
I believe this one is from the early production, using 9mm in Mag brass.
Yes, 9mm Win Magnum brass was used for all of the rounds until the time I visited a couple of years ago, when they were just working up loads for their new (somewhat thicker) purpose-made and headstamped brass (pics of my rounds below).
They also changed the sabot colour to white as you can see, but that was just to make the sabots easier to collect for analysis from the backstop of their underground range, which was filled with shredded tyre rubber!
Three of the CBJ cartridges shown next to a 9 x 19 for comparison: sub-calibre tungsten ball round; full-calibre frangible; full-calibre High Energy Transfer (HET)
Max - that one you have with the penetrator intact in the sabot is particularly rare, as the only 2 that I have seen in person had only an empty black sabot, as well as a struck primer. Is that some kind of rod inserted into the case shown through the bottom? In any case - Nice one.
Ahem - mine has a penetrator in too!
My rounds were made up for me without primer or propellant (makes transporting them easier) but are otherwise complete.
Tony - You seem to have the contact and you certainly have the name - why don’t you see if you could get these guys to make up some inert ones, properly headstamped, in each type, or barring that, at least sell you a bunch of the official green-bullet dummy rounds?
Just a suggestion. If they couldn’t go to England, perhaps they could go to some other European country with better ammo laws - Norway or somwwhere like that. Crime labs throughout the world would probably like to have some specimens for Lab Collections, not to mention that rest of us.
Just a thought. Forgive me if it has been tried and refused already.
Good stuff. I hadn’t seen yours, or not the top of the tip anyway. So at least we have a rough idea that there are a handful of them out amongst the collectors, a few with penetrators and a few without.
Is there a box photo or package label of any sort out there for this caliber?
It’s now more than two years since my visit to CBJ and I don’t know what the current state of play is, but at that time the rounds were hand-loaded by CBJ as and when required for demonstration to interested police and military parties. I would be very surprised if any packet labels have been devised.
CBJ was only aiming at the military/LEO market and had no intention of selling gun conversion kits or ammo on the civilian market. There were also some technical features of the bullet and sabot design which CBJ preferred not to reveal until the round was established in production. So it is not in CBJ’s interest to distribute inert ammo to the public for the time being.
Whether or not it will succeed I can’t say, although I believe it deserves to. Its really big selling point, by comparison with other new PDW cartridges, is that it can be used in existing 9mm guns simply by swapping the barrel. So CBJ don’t have to market new guns - just new barrels. That must make a far more attractive proposition than buying new guns, especially in these straitened times, for those users who want to give their pistols or SMGs some ability to defeat body armour.
I think that CBJ also has an excellent selling point in that (as far as I know) their rds have the highest penetration potential of any pistol-caliber projectile ever to be fielded in standard pistols. The velocities of that little penetrator are amazing, and it almost seems video-gamish that an operator with a Glock pistol could fill certain armored personnel carriers with holes at close range.
Yes indeed, the photo below shows a little piece of armour which is sitting on my desk at the moment (it makes a nice paperweight). It’s just under 9mm thick and comes from a Russian light AFV.
Of course, tungsten-cored AP rifle ammo like the 7.62mm M993 and 5.56mm M995 could do even better than this, but they aren’t exactly common.
I assume you have all read this article?
Sorry John, I did not realise you did not have one. I had a factory dummy at SLICS last year that I sold to a certain Mr. de C!
Wouldn’t it be easier to achieve the same economic advantage, with higher velocity and better penetration by using a saboted projectile in 7.62x25?
They probably could have achieved similar results using a 7.62x25 case, but I assume the desired compatibility with simple barrel swap-outs on common 9mm pistols would have somehow been limited if they used the 7.62 case.