6,5x53R Dutch Mannlicher


#1

This was sold to me as 6.5x54R Romanian. Can anyone verify this? Liviu?


#2

NO, 6,5x53R Dutch Mannlicher (same difference)

made 1936, Lot D, by Artillerie Inrichtingen, ?Zandaam?, the Netherlands.

Romanian original amao is as rare as hensteeth…and USCCo 1916 dates even rarer.

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics


#3

6.5mm USC Co. is rare indeed, but how about the British contract by Kings Norton in 1916? I have just acquired a KN 16 6.5 and it is only the third one I have seen in forty years.

Regards
TonyE


#4

[quote=“DocAV”]NO, 6,5x53R Dutch Mannlicher (same difference)

made 1936, Lot D, by Artillerie Inrichtingen, ?Zandaam?, the Netherlands.

Romanian original amao is as rare as hensteeth…and USCCo 1916 dates even rarer.

regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics[/quote]

Almost the right town, “Zaandam” -:)

Dutch

P.S.
Lot “D” ???


#5
  • @ sksvlad: The Romanian made 6.5X53R cartridges have brass cases and segmented headstamps. The impressed headstamp markings are: the 4 digit date of manufacture at 12 o’clock; “M” at 9 o’clock; “93” at 3 o’clock; the maker’s mark at 6 o’clock, usually the letters “P.A.?.” [the 3rd letter showing a code]. The original Romanian made 6.5X53R rimmed cartridges are VERY SCARCE and I don’t have any in my collection. Back in Romania I had a few fired shell cases 6.5X53R made in Romania, I had found them in some WW1 trenches from the Carpathians. — NOTE: The original Romanian made 5-rds steel clip for the 6.5X53R ammo has a small oval cut-out on both sides. The original Dutch made 5-rds steel clip for the 6.5X53R ammo has a much larger cut-out on both sides. Both 5-rds steel clips [Romanian & Dutch] are interchangeable. Liviu 04/30/07

#6

These rounds came in a brown-reddish lacquered clip with “23” on the clip’s back. Does “23” mean anything?


#7
  • @ sksvlad: I’m 99.99% sure your clip is Dutch, I also have a few of them. One of my clips has the same “23” mark on it but I don’t know what that means. Liviu 04/30/07

#8

Clips of Dutch manufacture for Colonial Use (KNIL–East Indies) were lacquered to protect them from tropical humidity…I have several cases (cans) of KNIL ammo (Both Dutch and Japanese markings) which consists of a wide range of both Dutch and FN made ammo, Dutch and Hirtenberger made Clips, and a lot of the ammo is 1930s reloads of 1920s cases.

The “23” is the date of manufacture of the clip. some clips will also have “AI” or “H” or Do (Hirtenberger’s factory in Dordrecht, Netherlands, or “FN 22” ( a large Post WW I order of ammo for The Netherlands… The cases (“FN22” )also turn up with the addition “3-39” in the 9-3 oclock position, as “reload” indications (whether done in the Home country or at Bandoeng or Soerabaya in java I don’t know.)
The Dutch armed forces regularly reloaded their once fired cases as Ball, and then eventually as Blank. pre WW I cases are often found recycled as Blanks, even several times. 1920s-30s cases are usually just one relaod as Ball.
I would say your ammo was surplussed by Indonesia in the 1970s or so, at the same time we got similar ammo, clips and well worn rifles direct from Indonesia to Australia.

Regards, Doc AV

PS, I wonder what happened to the USCCo. 6,5 which didn’t get to Romania in time///in 1916? I know the Locomotives made by ALCO (American Locomotive Company) for Romania were re-directed to Italy in late 1916-7, and were known as “Le Rumene” (The Romanians (ladies)).
A set of Factory cartridge making control tools and gauges was sold on Tillinghast’s Auctions some 20 years ago, packed it its orignal USCCo. wooden box, complete.

I suppose any left over KN made 6,5 in Britain would have found an easy market as “.256 Mannlicher Rimmed” a popular Deerstalker’s cartridge in Scotland and some of the Colonies. (using M92/93 original Steyr Romanian actions , a manufacturing over-run in the 1890s).

Regards, Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#9

Doc AV
There are a lot different markings on this clips,I have 100 different clips(markings) in my collection.
regards
Gyrojet


#10
  • @ Gyrojet: You have a FANTASTIC collection!!! At the top of the photo where the clips are arranged horizontally, at the right corner [where you can read on the wood “.303”], there is a Dutch clip [note the large cut-out] and the clip from left is ROMANIAN [note the much smaller oval cut-out]. Can you check if that Romanian clip has any markings??? If you have an extra Romanian clip, I definitely would like to buy it from you for my collection. Can you post here a closer photo of the Romanian clip??? Thanks in advance, Liviu 05/01/07

#11

Liviu and gyrojet, hope you don’t mind me answering.
This is a scan of mine. It is marked H in an oval.



#12

If anyone has a charger that they suspect is British WWI vintage please let me know as I would like to trade.

They should be stamped with initials, the numeral “I” and date.

Regards
TonyE


#13

Liviu and,Fernando .
It is marked CH in an oval


#14
  • @ Fernando & Gyrojet: If one of you guys have an extra clip [Romanian] with that small oval cut, I would like to buy it from you. Just let me know … Liviu 05/01/07

#15

Wish I knew where those KN 6.5mm x 53 went to (and the KN 8mm x 51R)!
KN did of course make the 6.5 before WW1 - and took some to Roumania as part of a sales campaign.
Although its generally accepted that Dutch & Roumanian 6.5mm x 53’s are the same - the drawing below from the notebook of Ronald Fenby who was a prominent target shooter of his day and Manager of Kynoch’s Inspection Department from 1905-1924 - makes interesting reading - indicating a difference in some dimensions. Kynoch of course made the ctg extensively from about 1900. It was also made by Eley, King’s Norton Metal Co and the Birmingham Metal & Munitions Co.
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#16

John
Do you have the notebook or is it in the archive at the Proof House?

Regards
Tony