6.5x53R M95 Mannlicher question

I finished the 6.5x53.5R M95 project this weekend (cartridgecollector.net/65-x- … licher-m95) and there is one question. I have this cartridge:

6.5 X 53R M93 KampC_zpsqqidjzbh

6.5 X 53R M93 KampC FULL_zps8xnwnt1t

The tip has been sectioned, see below at 200% scale

6.5 X 53R M93 KampC FULL A_zpsaqkdvdgk

It looks like a primer was inserted at the top and there is a small steel peg in the bullet that would suggest that it must be some sort of incendiary cartridge, however I cannot find any info regarding such a project. Any info welcome
Daan
cartrigecollector.net

Daan: I can’t help you with the K & C cartridge, but I have an additional manufacture date for KNIL contract cases, that is, 1929. It was most interesting to see all the headstamps you list. Jack

I’ll try to post pics, but for now I have 4 Romanian headstamps that you don’t have listed:
1914 / 93 / PAH / M /
1913 / 93 / P.A.M. / M /
1910 / 93 / PAM / M /
1903 / 93 / PAB / M /

Daan,

I have a different head stamp form Georg Roth.

img357 - Copie 3_zpsotznpazr

chassepot

Here are a few other minor variations I did not see on the listing:
38C AI
29 D60
22 F N

The K&C cartridges is marked “M 93” so obviously a Romanian contract cartridge (NOT “M95” which would indicate Netherlands)

AS to the Nature of the Projectile, not “Incendiary” but more likely “Observation”. The system was also used in 8x50R (Austrian) cartridges, for striking the shields of MGs and Artillery Pieces, thus giving an Indication of “Fall of Shot” ( Tracers and Incendiaries were only developed in WWI, for Aircraft use against Gas filled Aerostats (Observation Balloons and Zeppelins).

The “explosive” components of the bullet made them come under the Restrictions of the Treaty of St. Petersburg (1868) and more explicitly, the Hague Convention of 1899 ( which expressly forbade the use of Explosive SAA and Expanding SAA ( caused Britain to withdraw its “303 Mark II Special (Dum Dum)” and Mark III,IV, and V — all types of Hollow Point…all developed 1894-1899.) from use in the South African War ( 1899-1902).

Nice collection of early Romanian and Dutch 6,5s.

Doc AV

PS, The USC Co 17 shown as last on the list of Photos, is a 1916 Contract for Romania…but it is not certain that it was ever actually delivered, as Germany Over-ran Romania in 1917. Other Materials ordered by Romania before 1916 (Locomotives etc) were re-directed to Italy, because of Impossibility of Delivery, even by neutral ships via the Bosphorus (Turkey); By the time Romania was invaded in a Manner fore-telling the BlitzKrieg of WW II, the German Troops were carried by Truck into the Main Romanian Garrison towns, the Troops were armed with a pre-ponderance of “Musketen” ( Danish Madsens) and MG 08/15s, besides Rifles.( 1918 German Army Order of Battle) Also The US had become a Belligerant in 1917 as well, so delivery to Romania became even more problematical.

Austria ( K&C, etc. and Steyr) had “sequestered” all contracts for Romania in 1914 (R. was neutral), The Rifles eventually being rebuilt to 8x50R , but in the meantime, existing 6,5x53R ammo was used by the Austrians in sequestered M93 Romanian Rifles…it is unknown if Steyr , in 1914, had any undelivered stocks of M95 Dutch firearms; in any case, no more were delivered during WW I, and Hembrug began both “rebuilding” Long rifles into Carbines, and Making their own Long and Short guns.

Afterthought by Doc AV

I became aware of the “USCCo Romanian contract” over thirty years ago, when Tillinghast Auctions had a complete set of USCCo Tools and Gauges for checking the specs., of manufacture of the 6,5x53R M93 Romanian Cartridge. A rare find indeed at that time…I wonder who has it now?

Daan’s article focuses on the M93 variations.
And what exactly is the difference between an M93 and an M95, other than two digit places…?

I finished the 6.5x53.5R M95 project this weekend (cartridgecollector.net/65-x- … licher-m95) and there is one question.

Nice job, Daan. I like your site
May be some my pictures of Romanian 6,5 mm will be usefull for this project.
All of them were published in the article “Imperial Remnant” in the Ukrainian magazine “Hunting and weapons” gunmag.com.ua/category/ammunition/

65mm Rumania-4

Wow! I thought I was luck with PAH, PAM, and PAB!
What do all the acronym variations stand for?

Close up added of the business end of the observation round, vielen dank for the info Alex.

6.5 X 53R M93 KampC FULL_zpshtcl1i5h

Some of the Europen collectors are much more clued up on this, but the M93 is the Romanian version and the M95 is the Dutch version adopted by them in 1895. There are a variety of DWM numbers that were allocated to the 6.5x53R, some denoting different bullet loadings (394D and E), as well as commercial variations (395C) or MG loads (395E)

treshkin - that is a very nice collection of Romanian headstamps. I will put a link on the site to them. The markings at the 6 o’ clock position are all from the Romanian Pirotechnia Armatei (Pyrotechnical Factory), which I assume is the PA from the headstamp. The question is now, does PAB, PAM, PAR and PAF have any specific meaning?

Another question - what is the M92? I have the one version from 1892, which is 3 years before it was adopted by the Dutch.

regards
Daan
cartridgecollector.net

Daan: Essentially the M92 Mannlicher rifle action is the same as the one adopted by the Dutch as the 95. The Romanian M93 differs from both in the location and function of the ejector. In the 92 and 95 designs the ejector is contained in the bolt head and is operated by the bolt stop as the bolt is withdrawn to the rear; in the 93 design the ejector is found in the receiver to the rear of the magazine well and is cammed by the the bolt, somewhat in the manner of the 03 Springfield.

On the web a good description of the M92 is found in the Report of the Chief of Ordnance for the year ending June 30, 1893. The Romanian 92 (there was also a Dutch 92) made a good showing in the 1892 trials leading up to the U.S. adoption of the Krag Joergensen, but was faulted for its caliber and lack of magazine cutoff. In the November 1959 issue of the American Rifleman an article entitled “Mannlicher rifles” by Ludwig Olson gives a brief but useful account of the various Mannlicher designs, both turnbolt and straight pull type. Jack

The topic of the differences between the Dutch and Romanian versions has been discussed before:

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11427&hilit=rim+thickness

treshkin - that is a very nice collection of Romanian headstamps. I will put a link on the site to them. The markings at the 6 o’ clock position are all from the Romanian Pirotechnia Armatei (Pyrotechnical Factory), which I assume is the PA from the headstamp. The question is now, does PAB, PAM, PAR and PAF have any specific meaning?

regards
Daan
cartridgecollector.net

Thanks!
The meaning of additional letters B, M, R, etc in Romanian headstamps is still unknown. I think it could be the code of metal supplier or even a cups for making cases.

Daan: It would help with the question of Romanian versus Dutch versions to know whether your cartridge of (as I understand it) 1892 manufacture is of the thinner 1.6 m/m rim thickness or the 1.9 m/m of the Romanian version. This is a variation beyond ordinary production norms and would affect interchangeability in rifles with headspace adjusted to the lower permissible limits. Jack

As will be found from other research, Romania adopted the Md1982 Mannlicher and Cartridge ( ejector fitted to Receiver wall;) This had the thinner rim cartridge, the Md1892 Cartuse.

BY 1893, some difficulties saw Steyr improve the design to a Bolt-Head fitted ejector, and Named the Action the Md1893; Cartridge design was also modified to give a stronger rim; and existing supplies of Md92 cartridges could be used in the new Rifle.

This could be why a Lot of “Steyr Mannicher” Actions were sold to the British Gun trade were marked “Md1892” ( I have one, a Pape of Newcastle, Deerstalker set up; and have seen several others by other British Gunsmiths (Alex Martin, Glasgow and Fraser, Edingburgh. etc.). All these recivers also carry the typical Romanian Phoenix Acceptance mark, so must have been withdrawn from the Romanian 1892 Contract and replaced by the Improved 1893 design. We do need actual contract document Confirmation of this situation.

It is curious that it takes over 100 years to see clearly the history of (for us) an uncommon Rifle-Cartridge Combination.

Doc AV

This is a very nice old issue cartridge I own exactly one with the same headstamp it was made by keller+ company
in Vienna someone tried to diddle with that bullet and made junk out of it pull it and put an old proper one
back in there the headstamp is worth it
sherryl