6.65 Bergman?

I am told that this is a Rimless, Groveless Bergman cartridge. The bullet is 6.65mm. Can some of you all knowing confirm this? (Poor pic and I don’t have the cartridge, yet)

Shotmeister: It appears to be a 6.5m/m Bergmann, for which a bullet of 6.65 m/m measured diameter sounds about right. On the other hand, this is not an area in which I’m in any danger of being secured as an expert witness. JG

It appears to be correct; the first two version of the Bergmann pistol (the 1894 and 1896) used rimless/grooveless cases, and depended on retained gas to eject the empties. I’m guessing that they had a number of problems with that system, because the next model, the 1896 Neuer Art/NA/New Model had a conventional-style extractor and used cases that required a groove. Do you know if this round has any sort of headstamp?

This cartridge is the 6.5 Bergmann No. 3, Model 1894 Rimless-Grooveless cartridge for the pistol of the same designation (Bergmann Pistol No. 3 Model 94. The guns were made for the Theodor Bergmann Werk, Gaggenau, Germany. The one I had years ago was actually manufactured by the V. C. Schilling Company, Germany.

The pistol had no extractor. As most know, most blowback pistol do not need an extractor to function, unless the design has put a critical emphasis on extractor tension to properly control ejection (yes, ejection, not extractrion). In some firearms designs the relationship of the ejector to the extractor and its tension is important to insure the fired case is thrown from the gun rather than just turned in the ejection port. In a blowback pistol, the gas pushing the bullet forward pushes the empty case to the rear, with the case then acting as a piston to open the breech. The problem comes in when attempting to unload a loaded chamber without firing the cartridge. It is is dirty, the live cartridge may not drop out of its own force.

The cartridge was modified in 1896, with an extractor also added to the pistol, and became the 6.5 BergmannNo. 3, Model 1896.

These rimless, grooveless Bergmann rounds were made in 5m/m, 6.5m/m, and 8m/m. The 8m/m, both gun and cartridge, are very, very rare. The other two calibers become scarcer as time goes on, but are not considered rare even today.

Most of the rimless, grooveless Bergmann rounds have no headstamp, but there is one headstamped 6.5 No 3 M94 with the headstamp X/96/X/K&C/.
The entries shown as “x” are just that, they are not starts of asterisks.

The 6.5 is found with CNCS bullets and with lead bullets. All I have seen have had brass primer cups.

The DWM case number for this cartridge 413, while that for the 6.5 with groove and rim is 413A.

John Moss

Thank you all, especially John. Dang man, is there anything about cartridges you DON’T know?

My knowledge of cartridges is so complete and perfect that I am only wrong about 35% of the time it seems, and I have about 200 cartridge books the content of which I am expert on to a degree of maybe 1%, and that may be an exaggeration. There are guys on this forum that have forgotten more about ammunition than I will ever know. That’s simply the truth. Auto pistol, though, is my field, and in that area, my knowledge is decent, if not spectacular.

At any rate, I try to help when I can.