.650, .750 & 1" Gatling cartridges with "G-R" headstamps


#1

Can anybody identify the “G-R” headstamps on these Gatling cartridges?


#2

The image is upside down. When looked at in normal position it seems that the 6h pos is an Arab “3”.


#3

My 1st impression of those is that they are not factory / arsenal & thus home made, nicely done but still home made.

Why ?- To either fake & sell for big bucks or just to have as a representational sample in the collection, but are now not in the collection anymore, and as not originally marked as reproductions, have found their way onto the open market.

My best guess & no, not ever heard or seen this G-R headstamp before.

EOD the 6:00 mark is one inch - 1" .


#4

Pablo, I also share the opinion that these are modern replicas but I don’t know who made them or what the initials represent. Maybe “Gatling-Replica”?


#5

I do not think it’s “home-made” and definitely not modern replicas. Maybe reloaded at some time - the brass shells look really very old!
Why would somebody do that? Manufacturing costs would be far more than collectors value!!! What are Gatling ammo trading for?
One of the 1" cartridges were found in Rhodesia and the other one I got from a old reputable firearm collector in Zululand, South Africa, together with the .650 and .750. (He told me it was used on a ship to hunt whales!)


#6

Pablo, on the contrary, in my opinion the brass looks modern and maybe it was aged to give a better look. The bullets looks modern too and show mold marks. Also, the headstamps looks hand-made.

In this case, due to the rarity of the original cartridges, its manufacturing costs would be insignificant, and maybe these reproductions or replicas were made to fill a gap in a collection, for a museum display, for fun, etc. The headstamp is too obvious to call these fakes, but as mentioned by Pete, these may have been offered as originals once out of the hands of the original owner/maker.

Regards,

Fede


#7

I also had a query via the contacts form on my website regarding this. I had a chat with Will Reuter about them. Apparently these rounds have been floating around South Africa for a few years. Arno Klee examined some of them a while ago. They appear to be fakes or reproductions. He tried to pull the bullet on one of the .650 specimens and the whole base came loose. We could also not ascertain what G-R stands for.
Daan
www.cartridgecollector.net


#8

[quote=“PetedeCoux”]

EOD the 6:00 mark is one inch - 1" .[/quote]

As I can not stop drinking I guess I have to get me glasses now!


#9

Thank you all for the research and opinions! You convinced me that it must be replicas! Now I’m even more interested in the history of the cartridges! Unfortunately both Christo Marx from Rhodesia and Chris Viljoen from Zululand, the persons who gave the cartridges to me, passed away approximately five years ago. I’ll visit some military museums and speak to the curators to find out if they have any info on the origin of the cartridges…


#10

[quote=“Daan”]I also had a query via the contacts form on my website regarding this. I had a chat with Will Reuter about them. Apparently these rounds have been floating around South Africa for a few years. Arno Klee examined some of them a while ago. They appear to be fakes or reproductions. He tried to pull the bullet on one of the .650 specimens and the whole base came loose. We could also not ascertain what G-R stands for.
Daan
cartridgecollector.net[/quote]

Looking at the original photo which started this topic the rim/base of the cases look as if they may be soft soldered to the tube. If so, that would explain why one pulled off when Arno tried to pull the bullet.

It could, of course, be my eyes deceiving me (again)!

gravelbelly


#11

No, the “soft solder” you saw, was old copper polish! I cleaned it and the rim is solid!

I am convinced that the bullets and especially the paper seals, are not original. The headstamps could also have been added later on.

But how can I be 100% certain that the cases/shells are replicas? Drill a hole 20mm above the rim? What must I look for?


#12

pablo
Please forgive me If I’m stating things you are aware of.

Two ways to make a case 1 is turning it. So with a very good 10 power or higher glass look closely for turn marks. If you see vertical scratches on the body then some one has tried to remove them, You could also look for signs of having the turn marks removed by buffing. Down where the rim joins the head would be a hard place to remove turn marks. One might expect turn marls on a head-rim beveled edge.

The other way is by drawing or impact extrusion. Drawing was the way the originals were made (& your right very expensive and hard to do) & that has a way of somewhat re-forming the metals grain. So again with the glass look at a old cartridge you know to be right & find / see the metal grain. then compare to those.

A 3rd way was mentioned by gravelbelly, attaching a rim to a piece of tubing, by solder or such. if well done the base would have a correct diameter part of it that would tightly fit inside the tube. You would then only see the seam where the tube fits against the head, under the rim. & if soldered inside you might well not see solder on the exterior.

Also you might try X-rays. Look for the web height. Or x-ray just the head is there a primer vent hole? Look for a seam or solder which should x-ray to a different density than the brass.

Another thing to do might be to carefully, & you may have already done this, is to check all the measurements. & then check the weights. Good odds whoever made these did not put in a bullet of the proper weigh, just one that looked good.

I’m very glad to hear someone gave these to you & you were not burned by them.

If real English or US made examples I’d estimate these to be worth from $3,000 to $5,000 US dollars.


#13

Pete,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

On closer inspection it looks like a piece of tubing was attached to a rim, but that is also the process used to make other (factory original) ammunition, for example the 1" Royal Navy Sub-caliber Electric Primed Spotter cartridge (IV M)?

I will take them to the Hospital on Monday afternoon… ;-)
Hopefully the X-rays will convince me!


#14

Well, the proof is in the… X-rays!

I tried very hard to convince myself that it was originals, but it’s not!!!

You were right! ;-(