7.5x54 MAS ID


#1

This is a 7.5x54 MAS made by FN of Belgium.

Does anyone know if this was contract ammunition made for another country and if so which country?

Does the red tip make this a tracer round?

Thanks for any information.

Heavyiron


#2

tracer round made by FN for Liban in 1964
JP


#3

Thank you Jean Pierre.


#4

Jean-Pierre may well be right about this but I have this cartridge in my collection and it’s listed as being a contract tracer for Morocco. Of course, it’s also possible it was supplied to both countries.
Jim


#5

Hi Jim,
I don’t know very well this new staff and it doesn’t interest me anymore.
I just gave the info coming from Jacques Barlerin’s book.
Usually he is badly right, even if you find the opposite in another book.
About Marocco, he says they are SFM made and have a 4 positions arabic hstp.
JP


#6

J-P et al - I dfon’t collect this round, and shouldn’t butt in, but I always approach these things by weapons used. I assume “Liban” is the French equivilent of 'Libya," is that right? If so, does anyone know what French weapons were used by Libya?

French Morocco or Algeria would make perfect sense for the contract-manufacture of the 7.5 x 54 MAS cartridge. I am sure that those countries had plenty of the French weapons around. Of course, from WWII, perhaps Libya did also, although I am not aware of any Vichy French troops participating with the Germans in the battles in that country - have only heard of German Afrika Korps and Italian troops involved in Libya.

Interesting that there is an SFM Arabic 4-place headstamp for Morocco. At one time at the store, with a shipment of mixed ammunition from Israel, we had a small, but shooting quantity of 7.5 x 54 French with Arabic Headstamps, but from Syria. There were a couple of major headstamp variations as I recall. I used to have a bunch of them in my dupes, but think they are all gone now. It would be nice to see a photo of the Moroccan-contract from SFM to see how similar it is to the Syrian ones. I am not sure if the ones from Syria were made there by E.I.D., or whether they were imported. I didn’t pay much attention since they were out of my field.

Is Barlerin’s book available? I would like to get a copy. It has been alluded to before on this Forum, but I have never seen a copy. It sounds like a valuable reference.


#7

I thought the word “Liban” translated to Libya also, but I checked it on a French to English dictionary and “Liban” translates to Lebanon.

I have no idea if the Lebanese used the 7.5 MAS or not.

Heavyiron


#8

Hi Jim ,
yes the Liban and Syria used 7.5 Mas, specially for FM 24/29 MG, because they were French protectorates.

John !
Even without talking about the geographic location, how can you make the confusion between Liban (where the original people, not the imported ones, are Chistian) with Lybia (full of muslims) ! ! !

The hstp of the ctges for Marocco have a 4 positions hstp (a star at 3 oc and another one at 9oc)

The syrian manufactured ctges have no star.

JP


#9

J-P - I can make the confusion because I had in mind North Africa - Algeria, French Morocco, etc., and I don’t speak French, so did not know that “Liban” did not mean “Libya” in our language. It is clear now, even though you did not translate it for us who don’t speak that particular language, that you were referring to shat we call Lebanon. Yes, I know where Lebanon is, and I know they used many French weapons.

Good to know the difference between the Syrian and Morrocon contracts.

Now, how about that book by that fellow I mentioned - is it available?


#10

Sorry to interfere, but…I obtained such cartridges as soon as 1969 in Belgium from a guy, who was working as an executive at the FN Herstal (not the one that everybody knows, in the Ballistic Lab, and who made so many “official” fakes…as he was not an ECCC member at the time!).

It must be noted that Moroccoan cartridges do not feature headstamps in arabic script, but for the one from SFM (described in the Kent booklet) and noted by my deeply regreted friend Jacques Barlerin. As far I know, they use latin characters, from French and Italian contracts, the same as Tunisia and even Algeria (on their ammunition made now in ERIS Seriana).

Even Jacques was not always right, mostly for foreign productions.

This is not the same story for Syria, and Lebanon.

I do not know about Lybia, but for a very long time, Mr.Muamar Khadafi’s country had all its small arms ammo imported from East Germany, with 04 or 05 codes…(a old friend of mine who was often in Lybia-he was salesman there for Thomson Brandt mortars- told me that the stockpiles of small arms ammo was sufficient at the time-1978-79, for an army of 500 000 men to more than 12 years to come).

My Belgian friend was affirmative about these 7,5 mm rounds, Ball and Tracer , as they were from a 1963-64 contract for Morocco, and in no case Lebanon!!!

As far as I know, Morocco is still importing its ammo from abroad, Algeria is now manufacturing its own, up to 14,5x114, but also occidental calibres, Tunisia has a cartridge plant in Mensel Bourguiba (formerly Ferryville), close to Bizerte, were they make 5,56x45 since the Army bought AUG Austrian assault rifles,
Syria has been making its ammunition in MMD, Damas, and forwarded also some Lebanese contracts,
Lebanon is importing from Syria, but also Egypt.(Shoubra).

A interesting point is the fact that many of the Syrian made small arms cartridges used powder imported from…Yugoslavia !

Philippe


#11

Hi John
There is a little problem whith the book of Jacques Barlerin
This book saw very limited edition (less than 10 copies).
I have one because Jacques started his work with my ctges.

After a few years he decided to make many books instead of one.
Each book talking about one caliber : 30 M1, 50 Brg, experimental french ctges and so on
He sold about fifty of each.

And he died, just when he was finishing a book on Famas (a serious book, not like the funny ones you can find). Till now, nobody has got an agreement with the family to finish the book (only pictures were missing).
But this another story.

Therefore it is very hard to get his books.
One was for sale three months ago but he disappeared kickly.
(you can recognize original books from illegal copies because all the original ones are dedicated).

JP


#12

… and Nctp from Chechoslovakia.
On the four Syrian 7,62x39 box labels from different years in my files only the early 1964 manufacture has Yugo powder. All 3 other have Nctp.


#13

[quote=“philippe regenstreif”]My Belgian friend was affirmative about these 7,5 mm rounds, Ball and Tracer , as they were from a 1963-64 contract for Morocco, and in no case Lebanon!!!

It must be noted that Moroccoan cartridges do not feature headstamps in arabic script, but for the one from SFM (described in the Kent booklet) and noted by my deeply regreted friend Jacques Barlerin. As far I know, they use latin characters, from French and Italian contracts, the same as Tunisia and even Algeria (on their ammunition made now in ERIS Seriana).
Philippe[/quote]

Hi Philippe,

  1. you are surely right , having more foreign contacts than Jacques, and having this info from a guy from FN.
    Nobody is perfect, like you say.

  2. Concerning the 4 positions hstp (with star at 3 and 9 oc), my english is not good enough to be sure I have understood excatly what you have said.

The “but” in your sentence means “except” , doesn’t it ?
(meaning: all the marocooan ctges have latin characters except the one described in the Kent book)

  1. Concerning Algerian hstps I have seen some imported ctges with arabic hstsp, but they were shotshells;

JP


#14

All whazt you said is exact, my dear JP!

Returning to Jacques Barlerin, what a disaster was for all of us his passing away …

First, he was a very clever guy, and a very cheerful and pleasant friend. I mus say that there is not one week, to day where I do not thgink that it is too unfair, and that he should still be with us.

The trouble is that he had a very huge documentation, most of it on several PCs hard disks, and also specimens, books and… material lent by friends…All of this is now out of reach, as for unknown reasons, his family does not wish to answer any of our queries and does not allow anybody to make investigations in his papers…

The book on the FAMAS rifle was almost completed, very few details were missing, and Jacques had dates with several people responsible of the original project to settle the last points for good. He had no time for it.

Pictures were all set and inserted into the script, and the book setting up was practically over too.

The publishers are half sorry, half furious…but still there is no answer from his surviving relatives (I know both of his daughters, but they do not seem to be ready to change their mind…).

So, what to do? I would like somebody to help, but I do not believe the situation could change soon., anyway.

Philippe