7.62 NOT Lahti


#1

Got the round on the right today thinking that I might have found a 7.62 Lahti variation (correct Lahti on the left). After closer examination I don’t think I did. The rim on the right hand (CN bullet) round is .28mm larger, and the bullet diameter is 7.5mm. Has anyone seen this round before, and is it legit or an “unauthorized reproduction”?
Added thought: Perhaps this is an early 7.62 Lahti development round using Finnish 7.5 MAS components?



#2

I don’t have a Finnish 7.5mm MAS to compare with yours Jon but to my eye the extractor groove looks way too narrow to have been formed from a 7.5mm MAS.


#3

It does. I will post a side by side of the two later for a comparison.


#4

Looks to me like the case was made from a reformed .303 Brit or 7.62x54r where the rim has been turned down.

Is it the picture or is the mystery case warped?

AKMS


#5

Here’s a Finnish 7.5 MAS with the mystery Lahti. The MAS is CNCS while the “Lahti” is CN.

AKMS, not sure what you mean by warped?


#6

Looks like the extractor groove is pushed into the case. If I see it correct there is a little space between the extractor groove and the case body. It is like they were separated at one time.


#7

Hmmm…it does look odd in there. However I do not want to try to pull the round apart and potentially damage it.


#8

Jon, can you post measurements of this cartridge?


#9

Here are the measurements, but they are not very uniform or straight: bullet diam 7.54mm, neck diam 8.50mm, shoulder diam 11.97mm, head diam 12.07mm, rim diam 12.37mm, case length 33.67mm, cartridge length 48.98mm.
Whatever it is, the round was not made with a lot of skill or care. My guess is that someone wanted to duplicate a 7.62 Lahti cartridge, but for what purpose I do not know.


#10

Jonnyc, can I see the headstamp of your socalled 7,5MAS of finnish make?? I have no such thing in my collection…
The army manual lists under A0165 7,5 pk “ranskalainen” which means french manufacture and under A 0179 7,5 Hylsy…which means Hülsen or empty cases…no loaded ones…This goes with the citing of: " In 1941 local manufacture of 7,5 cartridges where considered, but this plans where later abandoned…" page 228 of Pitkänen and Sampanen´s book about finnish used ammo from 1918 to 1945…
The Cartridge in question, the wouldbe 7,62 (with7,5mm bullet) Lahti-round doesnt look at all, like any Lahti-made round.
Considering that many 7,62x35 around, are fakes anyway, you should take allways a suspicious look on 7,62x35, and the 9mm Lahti-rounds. this does not affect the 9mm Lilja (9x40) straight round, as there is no parent case, except its an elongated 9mm Para case. But for the other ones, there are millions of VPT 41 cases from the swedish 6,5x55 contract around, which flooded back to Finland in the Winterwar from Sweden. And this case is easely transfered (or reformed) into the normally real scarce Lahti-rounds, specially if the original tools of LAHTI does still exist on a known place…I have an original box of 7,62 Lahti, and there is an other one, at the finnish FBI (named National Bureau of Investigation) at VARNA. If you knew an original, you can easely find out, if a cartridge in doubt, is good or not. On the 9mm the same thing, but the originals used a special 9mm bullet-type (which I will of course) not publish.
The 7,62x35 Lathis where produced by the boxlabel as VPT 20kpl 7,62x35MM. p.Patr…, Ruuti: VRT-254/44, Panos 1,xx gr. (I leave the original weight out, not to train some copyists), the date is very late at 24.4.45. The 2 boxes have identical fabrication dates on it.

Typos corrected, as far my english goes…

Forensic


#11

My 7.5 MAS VPT has the exact same headstamp and appearance as the “real” 7.62 Lahti headstamp I posted above, the one on the left. I had a duplicate of the VPT MAS, and sent it to a Finnish collector a few years ago. He told me that it made the rounds of a few knowledgeable Finnish collectors who believed it was authentic. I have also read the information from Pitkänen and Sampanen´s book, but as we all know, a significant amount of cartridge history and information has never (and will never) been documented.
As to my little “7.5 Not-Lahti”, it does not appear to me to have been made well enough to have come from a factory workshop, but I will keep it off to the side with my other “mystery” rounds.
Thanks all for the insight.