7.62 x 39

copper washed steel case, tombac bullet, red bullet annulus

hstp is 944 74

  1. is it russian ?
  2. has the bullet a steel core or a lead core ?
  3. if lead core, i thought all the military russian ctges had a steel core. This means i thought false.Right ?

thanks
jp

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Can you show an image of the headstamp please?

The case is copper clad actually.

  1. What is the difference between copper washed and copper clad ?
  2. here is the hstp

  1. is it russian ?
  2. has it a steel core or not ?
    Thanks
    JP
1 Like

hello
sound like chinese
for the lead core two ways:

the headstamp is know so characteristics are know
or X-rays

This one is Chinese.
China made steel and lead core loads (the latter for export because of the steel core issue with the US).
I think 1974 might be early for this and the proj. should be steel core (analog to Soviet “PS” loads).

Copper clad:
The copper gets kinetically forged onto the steel before it even will be cut into a steel band to stamp discs from. This is why finished cases have no copper in the extractor groove (cut after drawing) and no copper on the case mouth (where the case is trimmed to length).

Copper washed:
Already finished cases do undergo a galvanization. Here then copper.

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Thank you a lot

We checked.
It is steel core inside

There is “7.62 x 39 CIP” laser engraved on side of the case;
Funny because it was sold in france !!!
jp

France is a member of CIP. For approval (homologation) of ammunition for public sale/export, CIP rules require the permament marking of each cartridge with a CIP approved name of the caliber (here 7.62x39). Surplus ammunition headstamps rarely comply, so it is often marked by the importer in the way you describe.
“CIP” on the case should be a registered acronym of the importer, here cleverly chosen as being the same as that of the international organization.
The proof-house doing the approval has to be identified on each box in which the ammunition is sold (obviously unavailable here).

yes i know.
but was is funny is the fact they have a steel core.
the law says no steel core but lead core only

CIP here means CIP; It is not the name of the importer.

Its name is written but hard to read : SCORpIO or something like that

“SCOPRIO 7.62 x 39 CIP” is the marking
jp

Here is the box. Lot 9-2019 is found with this 944 headstamps.

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I do not know the French law, of course. In Germany, steel cores are not generally outlawed, only those having a hardness of 400 Brinell or 421 Vickers or more are forbidden (real hard cores).
According to the hardness measurements I had done for me, the typical Soviet PS, Soviet LPS (before 1989), German SmE, German 08 mE, U.S. M59 cores, SS109 penetrators [UK origin] were way below this limit.

Edit: Not for technical, but for political reasons, all SS109 type cartridges have been decreed to be war material in Germany.

Thank you Fede. So the Prague proof house did the ammunition approval.

Hooke : Yes it is that. i am old and bad eyes !

JPeelen: I thought they did not want on the public market steel core bullets because they can go through bulletproof jackets.

Even low Brinell core bullets are not peircing type IIIA bulletproof bullets ??

It is a question.

JP

I am quite sure that soft steel (iron) cores would be outlawed in Germany, if their penetration capability were notably better compared to lead cores. The presence in WW2 German bullets is definitely due to the scarcity of lead, as archive records show. The late war SmE lang (even less lead) could definitely not penetrate a ~4 mm steel plate that was easily penetrated by ordinary lead core S and sS bullets of several lots. Actually that was a French test. The target plate is now in the collection of Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung at Koblenz.
I will ask someone who is experienced in penetration testing regarding the relation of soft steel core versus lead core.

Edit: Just to show the non-trivial matter of penetration. In the NATO trials at Meppen that led to the adoption of SS109, it turned out that at 100 m, the U.S. lead core M193 could penetrate a steel plate which the SS109 with its soft steel penetrator could not. (I will look up the plate thickness.)
The French at Bourges thought the Germans had had a few stiff drinks too much (Lower Saxony is more known for schnaps than for beer) and repeated the test. The result was the same: lead core M193 could penetrate a plate at 100 m which SS109 could not.

Added data: The plate was 7 mm RHA at 100 m with 90 degree impact: M193 penetrated, SS109 did not. RHA is rolled homogenous armor, not mild steel.

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Jochem, this is as odd as it is good to know!
Thank you for sharing!

The M193 vs SS109 penetration issue is velocity related. The higher velocity of the M193 gives it an edge in penetrating mild steel at shorter ranges.

This is a common phenomenon known by US shooters comparing M193 to M855. Best performance is known in 20" barreled rifles as they give the highest velocity.

AKMS: you are right, to compare the efficiency of lead or soft steel core we have to compare :
same velocity
same weight

I never did tests on bulletproof jackets (very expansive in france)
But i played some years ago with alumium plates
And the result was like physics theory :
hardener is the core, better it is (same velocity, same weight)

Coming back to the bulletproof jackets penetration, i THOUGHT penetration increased with mild steel core bullets and this based on many things:
Physics,
prohibition of importation,
and for example a difference between lead and mild steel core in data of companies

JP