7.62 x 49.6 Pre NATO


#1

What is the designation of a brass cased 7.62 x 49.6 Pre NATO round headstamped “F A 49”. Thanks in advance for any info.


#2

I have one and it’s labelled ‘.30 Light Rifle Ball T65-E2’ but quite how I came by this designation I don’t know!


#3

Here is a photo of the round I took this morning:

The Pre-NATO case is on the right. On the left is a standard British 7.62 NATO case made at Radway Green in 1970.


#4

For the case : FAT1 and FAT1E1 (the FAT1E1 have a thicker rim to prevent rim shears that were common with the FAT1 case)

left FAT1, right FAT1E1

For the cartridge : T65E1 (on case FAT1), T65E2 (on case FAT1E1) and T104.

I do not know the difference between T65E1/E2 and T104.

Michel


#5

Thanks, my cartridge definitely has a thick rim, so it is a FAT1E1 case, and the cartridge would have been a T65E2.


#6

The different T and FAT cases are usually easy to Id. The FAT1 and FAT1E1 are not so easy. If you have a good caliper and a jewelers loupe you can usually seperate them but there were manufacturing tolerances that sometimes makes it very difficult to measure the small differences.

The difference between the pre-NATO cartridges is primarily in the bullets. Unless you have the original box, or pull the bullet, you have to do a little educated guessing. In general,the earliest (T65) Ball series used the M2 bullet which had a GMCS bullet which is easy enough to ID with a magnet. The T104 bullet was GM jacketed with a steel core, again, easy to ID with a magnet. The T104E2 had a 10 ogive bullet that can easily be seen.

Falcon, your case is an FAT1E1. There were no FAT1 cases with an FA 49 headstamp, AFAIK. If Ball loaded it probably would have been a T104. The T65 Ball rounds were being phased out by that time, except for the WCC 54 T65E3.

Ray


#7

Ray, now I am confused! I thought the T-104 loads were all 51mm caselength. This era of experimentals is fascinating but where my knowledge is concerned it does seem to be a case of one step forward and two back!


#8

Ray, what do you know on FAT1E2 ?
I do not have information on this case.

Michel


#9

The T104 is a 7.62x49
The T104E1, T104E2, … are 7.62x51

Michel


#10

Thanks for the information Ray. Can any other calibres be formed from this case? The only reason I can see that someone would have de primed it is that they got hold of a quantity of the brass that was worthwhile for forming into something and reloading.


#11

Jim

Maverick answered your question. T104 was the 49mm case (FAT1 & FAT1E1). T104E1 was the 51mm case (183 grain weight). T104E2 was the 10 ogive bullet.

Headstamps only serve to confuse things even more. I have an FA 50 (one of the rare ones) with a 49mm case length and the GM/Steel core bullet. So it’s a T104.

Michel

According to HWS, there are no known FAT1E2 cases. A few fakes have been encountered but no real ones. It’s possible that HWS III will have uncovered more information but we’ll have to wait and see.

Falcon

I suppose the 49mm case can be made into any number of wildcats, and even the 300 Savage. I personally have not seen any, probably because there were not too many of the cases made and those who know what they are would not have ruined their collecter value by re-forming them.

All

Now, can anyone give me some clues on how to ID the T65 cartridges (except for the WCC 54) without having to pull the bullets???

Ray


#12

That’s why I thought it was strange, as they are not common cases. Maybe someone who didn’t know what they were found a few of them and decided they would reload them, but never got round to it.


#13

could they be new (relatively speaking) unprimed brass.


#14

The case has fouling on the inside suggesting that it has been fired, but the primer pocket looks clean. I thought that it could be new brass until I looked inside the case.


#15

All discussion so far has been about Ball cartridges, but don’t forget that the case could also have been loaded with any of the other bullets. AP, Tracer, etc., which means it may not have been a T104. There’s no way to tell now so it’s a waste of time to speculate on it. It’s simply a fired FAT1E1 case.

I have both an AP (T93) and a tracer (T102) with the FA 49 headstamp on the 49mm case. I also have two different Ball cartridges with an FA 49 headstamp on the 51mm case (T104E1).

Jim, your T65E2 could very well be the correct designation for your cartridge. It all depends on the bullet. There is a lot of overlap in the '48, '49, and '50 cartridges.

Ray