7.62mm x 39mm Short Range?


#1

Can anybody help with identifying this 7.62mm x 39mm cartridge? I am not convinced that it is genuine and it may well simply be a bullet jacket stuffed into a case. However, I am wondering whether it might be a Finnish or East German loading utilising a Soviet case perhaps. I believe I am correct in thinking that the USSR never did produce a Short Range load in this calibre.

Jim


#2

Is there a hole in the tip and the projectile just a hollow jacket?

If so it is a Finnish short range on a USSR case (not unusual).


#3

No, there is no hole in the tip and yes, the projectile is a hollow jacket.
Finnish?
Jim


#4

Without the hole I do not know, might be something else. (do not think it is Russian)


#5

I have several Finnish short range projectiles for the 7.62x39mm (in addition to the one with a hole in it) that are similar in profile of the one in the pic and do not have holes. It could be Finnish? Does the projectile attract a magnet? I would think that the Soviets would use a gilding-metal clad steel jacket and the Finns a non-steel jacket. The use of a Soviet case would make sense, only the intact primer seal makes me question it. To my knowledge, the Finns sometimes used once-fired cases to load gallery or short range cartridges and thus would not have the primer seal. At this point, I have to guess that this is something someone assembled from componants…

Edited to add: The projectile looks similar to that used by the Czechs in their “Rd.43” gallery load, but the one in the picture looks to be a bit too long. It is also hollow, but GM clad steel.

AKMS


#6

I can confirm that this projectile is magnetic. I don’t think it’s been ‘assembled from components’ as the casemouth shows no signs of ever having been crimped at all as I suspect a reutilised ball case would. It has been inerted at some stage by pulling the bullet and it may well be that it was not reseated to the correct depth which would account for the overall length being greater than expected. Now pictured (on the right) alongside several other Finnish short range cartridges.

Jim


#7

this pictures are very interresting do you have denomination about this cartrisges ?


#8

Samourai,
I believe the Finnish term for a short range cartridge is ‘Alikantamapatruuna’ but I do not know the designation for each individual cartridge.
Jim


#9

The one on the far left looks like the Austrian short range load. Did the Finns use the same bullet? Does the case have a Finnish headstamp or is it unheadstamped? If it is unheadstamped, it is most likely the Austrian load.

AKMS


#10

Headstamps from (L) to ® are;

  1. Unmarked
  2. P T 8 2
  3. VPT 75
  4. VPT 60
  5. VPT 66
  6. VPT 74

I’m not convinced that the first round is of Finnish origin, the projectile looks to be very much a Hirtenberger bullet and I’ve also seen notes suggesting this was loaded by or for South Africa.
Jim


#11

[quote=“Jim”]Headstamps from (L) to ® are;

  1. Unmarked

    I’m not convinced that the first round is of Finnish origin, the projectile looks to be very much a Hirtenberger bullet …[/quote]

Jim,

I can confirm there are unheadstamped South African short range loads known, using the Hirtenberger bullet. My guess is, your cartridge has a rather flat primer and is Pretoria made.

As far as the cartridge originally in question is concerned, we can rule out it is DDR (or any other Warszaw Pact country) made. In 1968 there was sufficient production capacity to use own cases for trials (in the case of DDR it could have only been trials because the


#12

[quote=“Jim”]Headstamps from (L) to ® are;

  1. Unmarked

    I’m not convinced that the first round is of Finnish origin, the projectile looks to be very much a Hirtenberger bullet …[/quote]

Jim,

I can confirm there are unheadstamped South African short range loads known, using the Hirtenberger bullet. My guess is, your cartridge has a rather flat primer and is Pretoria made.

As far as the cartridge originally in question is concerned, we can rule out it is DDR (or any other Warszaw Pact country) made. In 1968 there was sufficient production capacity to use own cases for trials (in the case of DDR it could have only been trials because the


#13

Hans,
Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I can confirm that the unmarked round with the ‘Hirtenberger-type’ bullet does indeed have a flat primer as you suggested. I’m satisfied that one comes from South Africa.
Back to the original round. I’ve had a good look at the casemouth and there is certainly no rust. The edge of the casemouth - if that makes sense - is bare steel and a magnifying glass shows very faint crimps. This doesn’t really suggest anything to me but what is obvious with a glass is the line on the bullet clearly showing that it was originally seated about 2mm deeper into the case. I see no point in weighing the round as it has been inerted and the powder removed. Would a closer scan of the casemouth area be of any help?
Jim


#14

Jim,
next time I’ll clean my glasses better ;-)
My is opinion, when there is bare steel, a second crimp was applied. Else there would have been a sealant or a thicker copper layer to protect.
Maybe we get facts from our friends further east.
Have a good evening,
Hans


#15

Thank you Hans, can you perhaps comment on my 7.62 x 54mm post?


#16

It was a pleasure, and I learnt from my reply: I always thought the Czech SR bullets were 4 gram …

Sorry, nothing to say about your post, completely ignorant.


#17

Did Hirtenberg supply the copper/plastic projectiles to the South Africans? Everything I have ever seen and heard about this unheadstamped cartridge was that it was made entirely by Hirtenberg and is identical in style to the known Hirtenberg 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm short range loads.

AKMS


#18

[quote=“AKMS”]Did Hirtenberg supply the copper/plastic projectiles to the South Africans? Everything I have ever seen and heard about this unheadstamped cartridge was that it was made entirely by Hirtenberg and is identical in style to the known Hirtenberg 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm short range loads.

AKMS[/quote]

AKMS, Hirtenberg may have supplied the projectiles - this I don’t know ! - but the unheadstamped cartridges were loaded in Pretoria.

Hans


#19

I can’t tell you much about the cartridge in question, but I can tell you that Hirtenberg was very active in South Africa, including during the period of the world-wide embargo against that country. They made ammunition with the “Mus” headstamp for Musgrave, ammunition with no maker’s name or insignia on the headstamp and coded dates, and in at least one case, a 7.65mm Browning with a false headstamp “* GeO * 7.65” that was supplied in plain boxes. I was able to positively identify the round as Hirtenberg by that box, as its construction was identical to a labeled box for 9mm Para Tracer ammunition, and the only boxes from any company of that design.