7.62x25 Russian Tokarev or 7.63x25 Mauser (30 Mauser)?

#1

I picked up a few boxes of Interarms, repackaged label 7.62x25 (30 Mauser) ???
I believe that most 30 Mauser is designated as 7.63x25mm not 7.62x25mm Russian. (Tokarev)
I understand the difference is in the load and pressure between the two calibers.
The product in the sealed boxes was older surplus ammunition with different head-stamps;
most 3851*, 539^ 48^ , 710* 48*, and some with no head-stamps.
Please see picture.
The cartridges cases have 3 crimps holding the projectile which is attracted by a magnet,
(which I would guess) is a steel jacketed, copper crad projectile ?
I can’t imagine the customers using in a Mauser Broomstick Pistol would of been happy if these are 7.62x25mm Russian (Tokarev)
My question is did Interarms repackage 7.62x25 Russian (Tokarev) or 7.63x25 Mauser (30 Mauser) ?
and is there a Head stamp guide to this cartridges available.

Thank you for your time.
David Call
ammo-one.com

#2

Dave,

I believe those are all Soviet headstamps and would assume the caliber is actually 7.62x25mm Tokarev rather than 7.63mm (.30) Mauser. Interesting that they mixed the two designations on the packaging.

I’m sure the experts on these calibers will correct me if wrong!

Dave

#3

It’s all Russian surplus Tokarev ammo, although I’m not sure where Interarms came up with it…possibly Finland.
Tokarev and Mauser ammo is dimensionally the same, and in other than one or two special cases, there is no consistent or documented difference between the two, much like .308 and 7.62x51. There are even examples of 7.63 Mauser ammo loaded hotter that nominal 7.62 Tokarev cartridges.
I have a multi-page guide for all Known Tokarev H/S and Loadings that is currently undergoing a revision. Send me an email and I can get one of those, or the last version, out to you.

*Or I can put one in your little hand personally at the Morgantown show!

#4

Both cartridges are the same from a shooters (ammunition buyers) perspective. Paul Mauser offered his C96 pistol for a cartridge called “7.63 mm Mauser” by the German ammunition manufacturers. Its SAAMI name is .30 Mauser.

In 1928, according to Bolotin, the Soviets decided to require all proposed new handguns to be chambered for the “7.62 mm pistol cartridge” as it is called by them. It is a copy of the Mauser cartridge. In the West, this Soviet/Warsaw Pact copy is usually called 7.62 Tokarev (or 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, as CIP nowadays does), because the TT pistol was designed by Tokarev.

Both cartridges are considered exchangeable for all practical purposes, although CIP has a definition for 7.63 Mauser as well as 7.62 Tokarev with very minor differences. But you can fire 7.63 Mauser from a Tokarev pistol (or a Czech Vz 52) and 7.62 Tokarev from a C96 without any problems. (Be aware of the corrosive primers, also containing mercury.)

Contrary to popular belief, 7.62 Tokarev (as adopted in Russia) is not hotter loaded than 7.63 Mauser. Bolotin gives its working pressure as 2100 atmospheres. CIP maximum pressure is 2400 versus 2500 for 7.63 Mauser. Russia switched to iron core bullets (to save lead). These are lighter and result in a higher muzzle velocity, which caused the wrong impression of a hotter load.

I was not able to establish whether some Czech versions are really loaded to higher pressures than the Russian standard.

#5

[quote=“jonnyc”]It’s all Russian surplus Tokarev ammo, although I’m not sure where Interarms came up with it…possibly Finland.
[/quote]

Jon, I think Finland is unlikely as a source as we see here post war headstamps and Finland used the 9x19 as a pistol and SMG cartridge - except during wartime when captured equipment was used where ever available. To me it seems unlikely they imported TT ammo after the war when resources were low and the country had to be rebuilt.
Also I am not sure if the Soviets allowed them to keep any captured weapons as they occupied the country.

#6

[quote=“JPeelen”]Both cartridges are the same from a shooters (ammunition buyers) perspective. Paul Mauser offered his C96 pistol for a cartridge called “7.63 mm Mauser” by the German ammunition manufacturers. Its SAAMI name is .30 Mauser.

In 1928, according to Bolotin, the Soviets decided to require all proposed new handguns to be chambered for the “7.62 mm pistol cartridge” as it is called by them. It is a copy of the Mauser cartridge. In the West, this Soviet/Warsaw Pact copy is usually called 7.62 Tokarev (or 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, as CIP nowadays does), because the TT pistol was designed by Tokarev.

Both cartridges are considered exchangeable for all practical purposes, although CIP has a definition for 7.63 Mauser as well as 7.62 Tokarev with very minor differences. But you can fire 7.63 Mauser from a Tokarev pistol (or a Czech Vz 52) and 7.62 Tokarev from a C96 without any problems. (Be aware of the corrosive primers, also containing mercury.)

Contrary to popular belief, 7.62 Tokarev (as adopted in Russia) is not hotter loaded than 7.63 Mauser. Bolotin gives its working pressure as 2100 atmospheres. CIP maximum pressure is 2400 versus 2500 for 7.63 Mauser. Russia switched to iron core bullets (to save lead). These are lighter and result in a higher muzzle velocity, which caused the wrong impression of a hotter load.

I was not able to establish whether some Czech versions are really loaded to higher pressures than the Russian standard.[/quote]

Jochem, the TT cartridge differed in these respects:

  • larger primer
  • different proj. ogive
  • changed extractor groove
    The steel core projectiles came after the war.
#7

[quote=“jonnyc”]It’s all Russian surplus Tokarev ammo, although I’m not sure where Interarms came up with it…possibly Finland.
Tokarev and Mauser ammo is dimensionally the same, and in other than one or two special cases, there is no consistent or documented difference between the two, much like .308 and 7.62x51. There are even examples of 7.63 Mauser ammo loaded hotter that nominal 7.62 Tokarev cartridges.
I have a multi-page guide for all Known Tokarev H/S and Loadings that is currently undergoing a revision. Send me an email and I can get one of those, or the last version, out to you.

*Or I can put one in your little hand personally at the Morgantown show![/quote]
Johnny,
Thank you for the information,
My Best,
Dave Call

#8

[quote=“JPeelen”]Both cartridges are the same from a shooters (ammunition buyers) perspective. Paul Mauser offered his C96 pistol for a cartridge called “7.63 mm Mauser” by the German ammunition manufacturers. Its SAAMI name is .30 Mauser.

In 1928, according to Bolotin, the Soviets decided to require all proposed new handguns to be chambered for the “7.62 mm pistol cartridge” as it is called by them. It is a copy of the Mauser cartridge. In the West, this Soviet/Warsaw Pact copy is usually called 7.62 Tokarev (or 7.62 x 25 Tokarev, as CIP nowadays does), because the TT pistol was designed by Tokarev.

Both cartridges are considered exchangeable for all practical purposes, although CIP has a definition for 7.63 Mauser as well as 7.62 Tokarev with very minor differences. But you can fire 7.63 Mauser from a Tokarev pistol (or a Czech Vz 52) and 7.62 Tokarev from a C96 without any problems. (Be aware of the corrosive primers, also containing mercury.)

Contrary to popular belief, 7.62 Tokarev (as adopted in Russia) is not hotter loaded than 7.63 Mauser. Bolotin gives its working pressure as 2100 atmospheres. CIP maximum pressure is 2400 versus 2500 for 7.63 Mauser. Russia switched to iron core bullets (to save lead). These are lighter and result in a higher muzzle velocity, which caused the wrong impression of a hotter load.

I was not able to establish whether some Czech versions are really loaded to higher pressures than the Russian standard.[/quote]

Thank you for the information,
My Best,
Dave Call

#9

Some questions came to mind when thinking about the physical / designation differences between the two:

  1. Did the Soviets ever make their own ammunition specifically for the C96 Mauser (pre-Tokarev) that was used to some extent by them? I only know of their production of 7.62 Nagant in that era.

  2. Where there any specifications stated that the “new” 7.62x25mm cartridge would interchange with the 7.63mm Mauser for use in the C96?

  3. How about China regarding the basics of the two above questions?

I have always assumed the two were always intended to be interchangeable and that any differences were related to manufacturing. That being said, I have always considered them different from the point of view of a cartridge collector (just because…)

Thanks for any comments.

Dave

#10

There was no “new” cartridge. The Soviets just started making 7.63 ammo for the C96 and Bolo pistols they had. Fedor Tokarev simply designed the TT30 pistol around the already produced round that was later also used for Soviet SMGs. At some point, probably also in the early 1930s, the Soviets changed the designation from 7.62 to the 7.62 terminology they were already familiar with.
The 7.62 Tokarev, .30 Mauser, 7.63 Mauser, and .30 Bore are all the same animal…much like your mother’s sister is your grandmother’s daughter and your aunt. Different names, same person.

#11

I have a multi-page guide for all Known Tokarev H/S and Loadings that is currently undergoing a revision. Send me an email and I can get one of those, or the last version, out to you.

JohnyC send me your list.
Bruce

#12

Alex,

Finland was NOT occupied by the Russians in 1944 after the armistice between Finland and the Soviet Union: Finland DID remain a sovereign country and NEVER lost that status, not during the war nor after it! There were only two wargoing countries in Europe that never were occupied: the UK and Finland!

In the late 1940s it however was pretty close the Soviet Union didn’t occupy Finland after all with a little help of traitorous Finnish communists, those years were called the Years of Danger in Finland. So, we narrowly escaped the Evil Empire…

The captured Soviet weapons and ammunition were never returned to the Soviet Union, they even let Finland keep all the German stuff we BOUGHT from Germany in 1939-44. However, all German equipment LEFT in Finland had to be handed over to the Russians, even rails from the railroads and pavement from the airfields built by the Germans.

And finally… Those Tokarev rounds are absolutely not from Finland, we only had those captured from the Red army in 1939-44.

#13

Mika, somehow I equaled the conditions the USSR was putting on Finalnd with an occupation (including the lost territories, would these qualify as occupied?) - so I had that “occupation” thought for years following a habit I guess which was inspired by the situ in Austria. Thank you for straightening this out!
So Finland was really lucky as you say. And yes, communists were never good for anything but opression and mismanagement.

#14

Alex, it’s true that Finland lost some of its territory to the S.U. in the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty, was due to pay a huge amount of war reparations and she also had to rent Porkkala area to the Russians for about ten years. But, most importantly, she was never occupied…

It’s still a mystery why Stalin didn’t occupy Finland, there are a lot of good theories but the truth was buried with him.

#15

That bsoviet Ammo was acquired by Sam Cummings (interarms) from various Central European source he did business with, i8ncluding “Omnipol” the Czech Export trading company (Tractors, ammunition, Heavy Machinery, guns, etc.) The Repacking could have been done in Finland (IA did a lot of Milsurp Ammo remanufacturing there, both of Finnish and German and British ammo) or in Britain (IA had a base in Manchester for “Trade Proofing” all the Lee Enfields and No4 rifles etc. he bought from the British Govt; as well as his Major Warehouse of guns from all over the world, before sending them to the USA,Canada, Australia, etc.
SC’s connections with the CIA also served to move (Both ways) quantities of “clean” ammo ( source not verifiable) and guns of a WW II nature for the operations undertaken by the CIA.

Now as to the differences between the 7,63x25 Mauser (1896) and the 7,62x25 Tokarev (TT30). CIP and SAAMI specifications vary slightly in neck length, exact OA case Length (the 7,62 Tok, in steel, is slightly shorter ( 0.5-0.7mm). BUllet diameter is the same (.309-310) and Powder charge is “roughly” the same but of different Powders. Whilst DWM original 7,63 M ammo was loaded for a Temperate-tropical climate range, the Russian was loaded for an Arctic-subarctic Temperature range, to ensure it worked in Winter…hence in summer, it will rate a higher Pressure than most "DWM Made 7,63 M). I have found that Both Russian and Chinese 7,62 Tokarev, regularly Hammer the Bolt Lock and its receiver slot shoulder, in some guns quite dangerously…Hence I now use only Handloads and the occasional FNM-Century Arms Contract 7,63 Mauser ammo. Steel cased Soviet and Chinese is much worse than Brass ( early 1950s Brass Tok ammo, was made on the same machinery that originally made 7,63x25 for the Chinese Nationalist Forces. ( Factory 321, “Experimental Pistol Cartridges 7,62mm” with a .199 primer (Berdan), brass case, and very dirty Powder 1952-3). BY 1956, China was making all its mainline ammo (7,62 Pistol, 7,62M43, 7,62 T53 ( x54R) IN Copper washed steel. The Steel cases don’t adhere to the chamber like brass does, so the Breechblock opens well before the pressure has fallen, and hence the high recoil velocity and Hammering of the Bolt Lock in C96 Pistols. It does not matter in a PPSh or PPS, but it sure does in a Mauser.

BTW, the Russians wanted “Socialist Order” in their calibre designations so the Tokarev Cartridge was Named “7,62x25 Pistolet/ Pistolet Pulyemiet Patronnyi…” ( Pistol and Machine-pistol Cartridge)

OK, so the Russians invented the Telephone as well…

Doc AV

#16

“BY 1956, China was making all its mainline ammo (7,62 Pistol, 7,62M43, 7,62 T53 ( x54R) IN Copper washed steel.”

One correction to the above; all known Chinese production of 7.62x25 was brass-cased until sometime in 1964, not 1956.

#17

[quote=“DocAV”]

BTW, the Russians wanted “Socialist Order” in their calibre designations so the Tokarev Cartridge was Named “7,62x25 Pistolet/ Pistolet Pulyemiet Patronnyi…” ( Pistol and Machine-pistol Cartridge)

Doc AV[/quote]

Doc, the Russian designation for the cartridge is “7.62mm Pistoletnyy Patron obraztsa 1930 goda” what means “7.62mm Pistol Cartridge Model of 1930”.

#18

[quote=“jonnyc”] IN Copper washed steel."
[/quote]

Jon, no nitpicking here as we had this subject on the forum already but the cases are usually “copper clad”.

#19

Alex, I just quoted Doc, however, here we usually refer to that process as plating or washing.
But I am not a scientist, engineer, or metallurgist, so what do I know?!

#20

Jon, this is not meant personal or to criticize you or so. Actually the “usually” was the reason for my remark as it is technically incorrect and at a place like here we could get it straight once most people do not know or care. Though I guess it is like fighting windmills.