7,62x25 Tokarev


#1

This has probably been done to death but I was idly turning these two drill rounds over in my hands when I noticed that there was a different I hadn’t seen before. The one on the right is obviously 7,62x25, the measurements say so but the one on the left has a shorter case, it being 22.76 long… the overall length of the two cartridges is almost identical however.


Any ideas?

Peter


#2

These have been covered before, but I can’t find the thread here. There is also one with the 25m/m case length, but the low shoulder, and there are brass-cased ones and nickeled case ones as well.

I was given what I regarded as a very plausible explanation for these once, by a Czech friend living here, but it was said to be wrong by someone else from Europe, so I no longer explain it.

There is an explanation, I believe, in the book on Slovak ammunition from Povazske Strojarny (PS, “aym”) but I cannot read it as the book is in the Slovak language. Perhaps one of our middle European guys will see this and help us out on it with the real answer, and not just theories.


#3

I have heard two explanations for this, not sure which to believe at this point. I hope we can put this to bed eventually.

  1. The short-shoulder examples were used in training guns with shorter chambers so as not to allow loaded cartridges to fit.
  2. The shorter shoulders were to prevent damage to the shoulder from repeated chamberings by trainees.
    John, are these the two you’ve heard? I would love to hear any other good theories or explanations.

#4

When I get a little more time, I will search my 7.62 Tokarev file on this matter, to try to find the correspondence where my friend gave his version. I don’t want to do it from memory. It was years ago he sent it to me, and I hope I kept it. I was not keeping everything in my files in those days.

Right now, just to add to the record, I will list the variations I have. I do not collect dates, so the list will be incomplete:

Normal case design - 25m/m with normal length neck. Primer cup with black rubber insert:

X - * 5 51 (Brass Case)
aym 53 (steel case, small headstamp letters)
aym 53 (Steel case, large headstamp letters)
aym 53 (Steel case, large headstamp letters, shorter flutes in case sides)

Normal case length - 25 m/m, but with low shoulder: Primer cup with black
rubber insert:

X - * 3 51 (Brass case)
aym 53 (steel case, large headstamp letters)

Short case and low shoulder. Primer cup is normal but snapped.

aym - 52 (Brass case)
aym - 53 (Brass case - larger headstamp letters than “aym - 52”)
aym 53 (Nickel-plated steel case and primer cup, bullet polished to be almost bright gold color)
aym 53 (Steel case)

Note that with the exception of the nickeled case round, all the steel cases are grey-green lacquered steel, as shown in the picture at the start of this thread.


#5

[quote=“Jon C.”]…

  1. The short-shoulder examples were used in training guns with shorter chambers so as not to allow loaded cartridges to fit…[/quote]

Jon,
this is the explanation to get in Central Europe and I believe it makes much more sense than bullet 2.


#6

The shorter cases are for sub machine guns vz24 and vz26 (as the box label says). These weapons have a blow back breech which will hit the case head and then the primer to set it off, for this purpose the cartridge has to be a bit exposed from the chamber. As long as life cartridge are fired this works fine. Dummy cartridges in the same situation will be pushed into the chamber - not setting off anything it will be necked down by the chamber (or destroyed) and possibly get stuck or if used a couple of times it will be deformed to the cartridge which is shown here as a regular product (just with a longer case which will touch the rifling and mybe damage it). To prevent cartridge deformation and jammed/damaged guns the cartridge is shortened and will completely fit the chamber when the breech is rushing down on it, then only the “face” of the breech will hit the barrel backside around the chamber.
Sorry for my cranked English - hope the sense did not get lost.


#7

EOD - the English is just fine and your explanation clear. The only part I don’t understand is the full function of the dummy. If like most SMGs, the cartridge is simply pushed ahead of the bolt, with the extractor snapping over the round once chambered, then this short-shoulder dummy would be pushed into the chamber too far for the extractor to be able to latch on to it, and it could become difficult to get it out of the chamber. Kind of a pain in the backside during training.

Now, if the round is feed up from the magazine, right under the extractor, as in many auto pistols, no problem, of course.

Just wondered if you know the exact “from the magazine” feeding cycle?


#8

John, that is a good question but I never had my hands on a vz24 or vz26. Would be worth to check how it would work.


#9

I could not stop thinking of it. I assume there must be a space and position for the extractor when the gun is fired “dry”. So far I assume that this dummy will fit the left space and still be caught by the extractor.
Any other opinions?


#10

EOD - No, I don’t have another solid opinion and would have to have the ability to really examine a vz 50 MP to get a grasp of things. However, the whole theory behind the Danes using a long case on their 9mm blank ammunition is that if the blank barrel, which is a taper bore or otherwise constricted so that blanks will build the pressure to cycle the weapon fully automatically, is accidentally left in the gun when live ball ammunition is to be fired, the first round will be pushed too far into the barrel to fire, and then have to be manually cleared before another round could be cycled. That would insure discovery that the wrong barrel was in the gun. That is just the opposite of the case of the short-shoulder Czech Tokarev dummy rounds, where the case (headspacing shoulder) is SHORTER than a ball round, rather than longer. I don’t see why the same thing wouldn’t happen - that is, the dummy round pushed to far into the chamber to work, unless they use a special, dummy barrel with short chamber for instruction. That would be insanity, in my view, since a live round would fire with much of the head of the cartridge unsupported, as well as being in a dummy barrel, almost insuring catastrophic failure.

Now, be clear on the point that I am NOT saying that this is the case. I don’t know the Vz 50 MP or even if the barrels are quickly interchangeable, like say the Swedish 45 Kulsprutepistol. I don’t know anywhere I could look at one either, as I know of no one that has one.

I have to assume that they knew what they were doing in designing this short-shoulder dummy round, so there must be some simple answer.


#11

Whe shall wait for someone to enlighten us about the vz24 and vz26.


#12

Thank you for the details, all I saw was a difference in length, I didn’t realise the true import of the case variations.

Happy collecting, Peter