Here is the link to a GOOD general article on 7.62x25mm cartridges from Russia (USSR) and Eastern European countries: http://gunmag.com.ua/762x25-tt-essential/
Open with Google Chrome and use the translate button in the little window in the upper right corner of your computer screen. You can place your cursor on each photo and click the left mouse key to open larger images.
Brian
Among other things article mentions TT pistols and ammo made in Iraq. Does anybody have any proofs for that?
No info at all on either.
That’s a great article! Did you peruse any other on the site? I found this one one silent cartridges:
Strelok,
Glad you posted the link to the silent cartridges article.
Brian
I wonder if they are confusing items made in Pakistan with the country of Iraq? While I have never seen a “Darra” (Pakistan) copy of a Tokarev TT30 or TT33, you can bet they made them, as they have made copies of just about every well-know firearm made. I have a Darra copy of a PM, and while easily discerned as such, it is very well finished, although somewhat crude inside. It copies Soviet markings completely, but some Darra copies of the PM do not. I imagine one could say the same for Tokarev copies.
Just a thought.
I am not familiar at all with “Google Chrome,” and don’t believe I have it for my computer. Does anyone know any other way to translate this article. It is something I really need, as in the main it appears to be an excellent work on this cartridge and covers some variants with which I was not familiar, according to the photographs. I do not read Russian.
John Moss
John,
I will send you the article in a PM.
Brian
Received perfectly. Thank you my friend.
John Moss
John, I had an obviously non-factory made TT33 that came to me out of Afghanistan. I may still have pics of it, as I did not want to shoot it, and the guy who bought it wanted it MUCH more than I did.
Brian, there seems to be some pretty nice cartridge related articles!
Sterlok,
I agree, go ahead and post the links for others to see.
Brian
.38 Special history with some good info about Russian revolver development in the 1990s:
Link
Basic history of cartridges with some really nice patent pictures all rolled into one page:
Link
Dear forum members,
I consider the history of 7.62 x 25 mm caliber cartridges from the technical point of view.
From the technical point of view, the shooting complex, including TT pistol and 7.62 x 25 mm (7.62 x 25 Tokarev) cartridge, was very unfortunate in all respects.
It is necessary to keep in mind the following.
The TT pistol is an unfortunate copy of the Colt Model 1911 pistol, converted for firing 7.62 mm caliber cartridges.
The Colt Model 1911 pistol is intended for firing 11.43 mm caliber cartridges, while the TT pistol is intended for firing 7.62 mm caliber cartridges. Thus, the TT pistol, by definition, is two steps less effective than the Colt Model 1911 pistol in the row of 11.43 mm - 9 mm - 7.62 mm calibers.
The developer of the TT pistol Tokarev tried to compensate for the decrease in the effectiveness of the pistol by using a cartridge with a bottle-shaped cartridge case with an increased weight of powder. As a result, the cartridge was overloaded with powder and unbalanced.
Unbalanced cartridge caused the unsolvable problems of the pistol. Despite all the efforts and endless refinements, the TT pistol was characterized by unstable functioning the reloading mechanism. As a result, the TT pistol was adopted by the army only during the 17 years. If it were not for the war, this period would have been significantly less. During the war, cartridges were manufactured in large quantities, but were intended for firing submachine guns. After the war, cartridges were not needed, and their production in the former USSR was very insignificant.
Mikhail
Mikhail - I’m not sure I agree with your logic.
With this way of thinking, using 7,62x51 is entirely pointless when we instead could use 9,3x57 or even .404 Jeffery.
The 7,62x25 has a good reputation for being flat shooting and penetrates materials that 9x19 and .45 ACP won’t (using normal ball/bimetal bullets).
Ole
Dear Ole,
It is necessary to consider the effectiveness of not a single cartridge, but a shooting complex. The effectiveness of a single cartridge cannot be considered.
But the shooting complex, including TT pistol and 7.62 x 25 Tokarev caliber cartridge, was very unsuccessful and unbalanced. A bullet can possess a high penetration effect, but if the pistol reloading mechanism does not work, then such a shooting complex cannot be considered effective.
But this does not apply to other shooting complexes of the same caliber; each shooting complex must be considered separately.
Mikhail
Mikhail,
I won’t argue, as you are right in that the TT is one of the last pistols I would ever choose to carry.
A Cz-52 however seems like a better made firearm, firing the same cartridge - and any “PCC”, SMG, or MP application of the round has its pros, for example PPD, PPSh, PPS, sa. 24/26, and the Bizon variant in Tokarev caliber are/were all relatively successful in use.
Ole
Dear Ole,
It is impossible to compare a pistol with a submachine gun with a long barrel and a large weight of moving parts. As for the submachine gun Bison of 7.62 x 25 Tokarev caliber, it remained a prototype. Only the submachine gun Bison of 9 mm Makarov caliber was actually manufactured.
Mikhail
Yes, and I stated the same ;-)
The Cz-52 pistol saw use as handgun in 7,62x25, for a period of time.
Ole
I must disagree with both of you.
As stated above, the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge is a powerful, highly penetrative round that was very helpful in the Soviet defeat of German ground forces. The TT pistol saw successful service from the 1930s to the 1960s, outlasting the greatly flawed CZ52 pistol. Other than the grip angle, I have never heard a disparaging word about the effectiveness of the TT30/33 platform where as the CZ has a significant poor reputation for problematic rollers and a weak spot in the chamber, not to mention an uncomfortable grip and horrible trigger. The TT is known for regularly digesting loads that will often destroy a CZ52. I have, however, learned of some reliability issues with the PPD, PPSh, and PPS SMGs, that I would not attribute to the 7.62 cartridges.
I would welcome reading any reliable accounts of problematic TT pistols or effectiveness issues with the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge. And I believe the premature exit if the TT pistol and cartridge were less a factor of effectiveness or reliability, and more of a move away from the SMG concept and the wish to adopt a more modern DA pistol.
Dear forum members,
Before the war, the Soviet leadership was against adopting automatic weapons. It should be considered a historical fact, the opinion of Stalin that the use of automatic weapons will only lead to the waste of ammunition. The situation changed after the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939-1940. The Finnish army, armed with submachine guns, had a significant advantage. But by the beginning of the war with Germany, there were no automatic weapons in the Red Army. The automatic rifles developed by Simonov and Tokarev before the war were unfortunate and were practically not used.
During the war, mass production of 7.62x25 mm caliber submachine guns began. However, by the dimension and weight, they were more not traditional submachine guns, but automatic rifles intended for firing low-power pistol cartridges. The sighting range does not exceed 50 meters. At a distance of 100 meters, weapons is useless. A submachine gun cannot be the main weapons during a war. Therefore, in the Red Army, the main weapons of the war was 7.62 mm rifle Model 1891/1930. Immediately after the war, the production of all submachine guns was terminated.
It must be borne in mind that all modern armies are armed with automatic rifles, and submachine guns are used only as weapons for law enforcement.
Each cartridge possesses a certain potential. This potential can be realized by using a shooting complex, including a cartridge and weapons.
The potential of the cartridge is determined by the caliber and only by the caliber. The potential of 7.62 mm caliber cartridge is always less than the potential of 9 mm caliber cartridge and so on. It is obvious. The power of 7.62x25 mm caliber cartridge is increased due to the use of a bottle-shaped cartridge case with an increased weight of powder. As a result, the cartridge is overloaded with powder and unbalanced.
The TT pistol, an unfortunate copy of the Colt Model 1911 pistol, could not be adapted to this cartridge. The potential of 7.62 mm caliber cartridge is insufficient for the stable functioning of the pistol reloading mechanism, initially intended for firing 11.43 mm caliber cartridges. When shot, a light bullet leaves the barrel and does not transmit the impulse needed to move a heavy slider. For 7.62 mm caliber cartridges, a different principle of the functioning of the reloading mechanism is required.
Therefore, the shooting complex, including the TT pistol and 7.62x25 mm caliber cartridge, is unbalanced. The complex provides a sufficiently high initial velocity of the bullet, but does not provide the stable functioning of the reloading mechanism. Everything is interconnected. It is impossible to deceive the laws of physics.
Mikhail