Received perfectly. Thank you my friend.
Received perfectly. Thank you my friend.
John, I had an obviously non-factory made TT33 that came to me out of Afghanistan. I may still have pics of it, as I did not want to shoot it, and the guy who bought it wanted it MUCH more than I did.
Brian, there seems to be some pretty nice cartridge related articles!
I agree, go ahead and post the links for others to see.
.38 Special history with some good info about Russian revolver development in the 1990s:
Basic history of cartridges with some really nice patent pictures all rolled into one page:
Dear forum members,
I consider the history of 7.62 x 25 mm caliber cartridges from the technical point of view.
From the technical point of view, the shooting complex, including TT pistol and 7.62 x 25 mm (7.62 x 25 Tokarev) cartridge, was very unfortunate in all respects.
It is necessary to keep in mind the following.
The TT pistol is an unfortunate copy of the Colt Model 1911 pistol, converted for firing 7.62 mm caliber cartridges.
The Colt Model 1911 pistol is intended for firing 11.43 mm caliber cartridges, while the TT pistol is intended for firing 7.62 mm caliber cartridges. Thus, the TT pistol, by definition, is two steps less effective than the Colt Model 1911 pistol in the row of 11.43 mm - 9 mm - 7.62 mm calibers.
The developer of the TT pistol Tokarev tried to compensate for the decrease in the effectiveness of the pistol by using a cartridge with a bottle-shaped cartridge case with an increased weight of powder. As a result, the cartridge was overloaded with powder and unbalanced.
Unbalanced cartridge caused the unsolvable problems of the pistol. Despite all the efforts and endless refinements, the TT pistol was characterized by unstable functioning the reloading mechanism. As a result, the TT pistol was adopted by the army only during the 17 years. If it were not for the war, this period would have been significantly less. During the war, cartridges were manufactured in large quantities, but were intended for firing submachine guns. After the war, cartridges were not needed, and their production in the former USSR was very insignificant.
Mikhail - I’m not sure I agree with your logic.
With this way of thinking, using 7,62x51 is entirely pointless when we instead could use 9,3x57 or even .404 Jeffery.
The 7,62x25 has a good reputation for being flat shooting and penetrates materials that 9x19 and .45 ACP won’t (using normal ball/bimetal bullets).
It is necessary to consider the effectiveness of not a single cartridge, but a shooting complex. The effectiveness of a single cartridge cannot be considered.
But the shooting complex, including TT pistol and 7.62 x 25 Tokarev caliber cartridge, was very unsuccessful and unbalanced. A bullet can possess a high penetration effect, but if the pistol reloading mechanism does not work, then such a shooting complex cannot be considered effective.
But this does not apply to other shooting complexes of the same caliber; each shooting complex must be considered separately.
I won’t argue, as you are right in that the TT is one of the last pistols I would ever choose to carry.
A Cz-52 however seems like a better made firearm, firing the same cartridge - and any “PCC”, SMG, or MP application of the round has its pros, for example PPD, PPSh, PPS, sa. 24/26, and the Bizon variant in Tokarev caliber are/were all relatively successful in use.
It is impossible to compare a pistol with a submachine gun with a long barrel and a large weight of moving parts. As for the submachine gun Bison of 7.62 x 25 Tokarev caliber, it remained a prototype. Only the submachine gun Bison of 9 mm Makarov caliber was actually manufactured.
Yes, and I stated the same ;-)
The Cz-52 pistol saw use as handgun in 7,62x25, for a period of time.
I must disagree with both of you.
As stated above, the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge is a powerful, highly penetrative round that was very helpful in the Soviet defeat of German ground forces. The TT pistol saw successful service from the 1930s to the 1960s, outlasting the greatly flawed CZ52 pistol. Other than the grip angle, I have never heard a disparaging word about the effectiveness of the TT30/33 platform where as the CZ has a significant poor reputation for problematic rollers and a weak spot in the chamber, not to mention an uncomfortable grip and horrible trigger. The TT is known for regularly digesting loads that will often destroy a CZ52. I have, however, learned of some reliability issues with the PPD, PPSh, and PPS SMGs, that I would not attribute to the 7.62 cartridges.
I would welcome reading any reliable accounts of problematic TT pistols or effectiveness issues with the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge. And I believe the premature exit if the TT pistol and cartridge were less a factor of effectiveness or reliability, and more of a move away from the SMG concept and the wish to adopt a more modern DA pistol.
Dear forum members,
Before the war, the Soviet leadership was against adopting automatic weapons. It should be considered a historical fact, the opinion of Stalin that the use of automatic weapons will only lead to the waste of ammunition. The situation changed after the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939-1940. The Finnish army, armed with submachine guns, had a significant advantage. But by the beginning of the war with Germany, there were no automatic weapons in the Red Army. The automatic rifles developed by Simonov and Tokarev before the war were unfortunate and were practically not used.
During the war, mass production of 7.62x25 mm caliber submachine guns began. However, by the dimension and weight, they were more not traditional submachine guns, but automatic rifles intended for firing low-power pistol cartridges. The sighting range does not exceed 50 meters. At a distance of 100 meters, weapons is useless. A submachine gun cannot be the main weapons during a war. Therefore, in the Red Army, the main weapons of the war was 7.62 mm rifle Model 1891/1930. Immediately after the war, the production of all submachine guns was terminated.
It must be borne in mind that all modern armies are armed with automatic rifles, and submachine guns are used only as weapons for law enforcement.
Each cartridge possesses a certain potential. This potential can be realized by using a shooting complex, including a cartridge and weapons.
The potential of the cartridge is determined by the caliber and only by the caliber. The potential of 7.62 mm caliber cartridge is always less than the potential of 9 mm caliber cartridge and so on. It is obvious. The power of 7.62x25 mm caliber cartridge is increased due to the use of a bottle-shaped cartridge case with an increased weight of powder. As a result, the cartridge is overloaded with powder and unbalanced.
The TT pistol, an unfortunate copy of the Colt Model 1911 pistol, could not be adapted to this cartridge. The potential of 7.62 mm caliber cartridge is insufficient for the stable functioning of the pistol reloading mechanism, initially intended for firing 11.43 mm caliber cartridges. When shot, a light bullet leaves the barrel and does not transmit the impulse needed to move a heavy slider. For 7.62 mm caliber cartridges, a different principle of the functioning of the reloading mechanism is required.
Therefore, the shooting complex, including the TT pistol and 7.62x25 mm caliber cartridge, is unbalanced. The complex provides a sufficiently high initial velocity of the bullet, but does not provide the stable functioning of the reloading mechanism. Everything is interconnected. It is impossible to deceive the laws of physics.
Mikhail, how does this square with the Fedorov rifle in 6.5mm?
And I am no ballistics expert but 100m as effective range for an SMG in 7.62x25 sounds very understated.
As per the Soviet PPSh manual of 1942 effective ranges are 100m in full-auto and 300m in semi-auto. Effective aiming range is given as 500m and lethal range is still claimed for 800m.
Can the official manual be so wrong?
Dear forum member,
Answer your questions.
Fedorov developed an automatic rifle in 1910s of the last century, still in Tsarist Russia, before the 1917 revolution. There is very little reliable information about this weapon. Even the number of weapons produced is unknown. The range varies from a few tens to few hundred units. Thus, this was and remained a prototype.
Of interest is only the effective firing range, which, as I indicated, is 100 meters. This is the range, at which the target can be defeated. The range of the bullet, of course, much more. Even the range of the bullet of rimfire 22LR caliber cartridge can reach 1500 meters.
Mikhail, I further will refrain from this discussion.
The TT pistol is an unfortunate copy of the Colt Model 1911 pistol, converted for firing 7.62 mm caliber cartridges
While TT borrows heavily from design of 1911, it is NOT a copy
Thus, the TT pistol, by definition, is two steps less effective than the Colt Model 1911
This is something new - measuring effectiveness in “steps”
The developer of the TT pistol Tokarev tried to compensate for the decrease in the effectiveness of the pistol by using a cartridge with a bottle-shaped cartridge case with an increased weight of powder
Again, this is very new for me. Can you submit any proof that Tokarev did anything to a cartridge, rather than just designing a pistol around a given one?
the TT pistol was characterized by unstable functioning the reloading mechanism
News again. Care to substantiate this claim?
this period would have been significantly less
Yes, but all pistols submitted to 1938 trials were firing same 7.62x25 round…
It should be considered a historical fact, the opinion of Stalin that the use of automatic weapons will only lead to the waste of ammunition
And that’s why AVS-36 was adopted as a select-fire rifle, right? Do you have any documents substantiating your point of view?
However, by the dimension and weight, they were more not traditional submachine guns, but automatic rifles intended for firing low-power pistol cartridges
What weapons do you mean?
A submachine gun cannot be the main weapons during a war.
And that’s why USSR alone made over 7 millions of SMG, Britatain another 4 millions or so, and US about 2 millions?
and submachine guns are used only as weapons for law enforcement.
There is very little reliable information about this weapon
There’s a lot of information published recently, if you care to educate yourself a bit.
Even the number of weapons produced is unknown
Not true again. Close to 3 thousands were produced in 1920s at Kovrov, and issued to Red Army troops until 1928, then re-issued during Winter war
This is the range, at which the target can be defeated
What do you mean by that?
Dear forum member,
You asked so many questions; it will take me at least a year to answer them with my knowledge of English.
But maybe I will answer the main part of your questions if I approach the problem from the other side.
You write, “There’s a lot of information published recently, if you care to educate yourself a bit”. It is a little hurt, but it’s no big deal. You are absolutely right about the flow of information.
The only question is how reliable this information flow is. I am convinced that the main part of the information should be considered unreliable.
I always consider it necessary to mentally ask the author of an online publication the following simple and understandable questions:
In the days of the former USSR, publishing a book was very difficult. There were required to have reviews of leading organizations, expert opinions, and so on. There was very little literature, and it was of high quality. With the advent of the Internet, everything has changed. Write to anyone who wants. And books are published by anyone who wants and who has a little money.
I already wrote that I receive information not from articles in Wikipedia.
I have been working with weapons and ammunition for 39 years. I developed, tested, and produced weapons and ammunition. I have personally known all well-known designers of ammunition and weapons of the former USSR and later on in Russia.
Maybe this is the answer to the main part of your questions?
Later, I will answer individual questions that may be of interest to forum members.
If you are not aware - Maxim (“mpopenker”) is VERY knowledgeable on this field.
I have not met him personally but hope I once will, he has shared enormous amounts of knowledge and rare inside views of Russian/Soviet firearms for many years.