7.62x38R Nagant "38 40"


#1

Municion.org says that this factory has functioned from 1941 to 1989, but here is a 1940 headstamp. So what was the first year of production?
image


#2

On your picture headstamp 38 40 - is a code of Tula Cartridge plant #38 and year of manufacturing 1940.

Tula plant was established in 1880.
In 1932 it became a Plant #10
In 1936 Tula Cartridge plant get #176
In 1938 it was devided for two plant: cartridge plant #38 and Artillery shells plant #176
In 1941 Tula plant #38 was evacuated in Juruzan city. The new plant get the same #38, and used it till the end of 1980s

In 1942 Tula cartridge plant was renewed and get #539

Regarding Russian Nagant cartridges - this caliber was produced by only one plant all time, in Russia and in USSR. From 1890s till 1941 it was Tula cartridge plant. And from 1941 till the end of 1980s it was Juruzan cartridge plant #38. That is why, the “headstamp history” of this caliber in Russia-USSR was very simple:

Before 1918 Nagant cases had plain base (without headstamps)
From 1918 to 1932 Tula plant used headstamp “Т П Т” [color=#FF0000](correct - T П З, as Тульский Патронный Завод / Tula Cartridge Plant)[/color] (at 9, 12 and 3 o’clock) and two last digits of the year at 6 o’clock
From 1932 to 1937 the headstamp was “T” at 12 o’clock and two last digits of the year at 6 o’clock
And from 1938 till the end of 1980s the headstamp was “38” at 12 o’clock and two last digits of the year at 6 o’clock


#3

Treshkin, I assume “Т П Т” is a typo and should be “Т П 3”.


#4

Yes, you are right - ТПЗ is correct. I was thinking about USSR ПаТрубТрест (PaTrubTrest - Cartridge-tube trust), while write this message and make a mistake.


#5

Thanks, I shoot 32acp in my Nagant and never handled actual Nagant rounds or their history before.


#6

[quote=“treshkin”]
I was thinking about USSR ПаТрубТрест (PaTrubTrest - Cartridge-tube trust), while write this message and make a mistake.[/quote]

Yes, I knew exactly what you thought of :)


#7

[quote=“EOD”]
Yes, I knew exactly what you thought of :)[/quote]

Alex! Your questions is always is a subject for a long reflection:)


#8

Treshkin: did the bullets of the Russian-made Nagant revolver cartridges parallel the 7.62 m/m rifle cartridges in having cupro-nickel jackets early and then gm-clad steel ones in the later production? The two specimens I have, from the late 1930s, both have the GMCS jackets. Jack


#9

Yes, all early Nagant bullets had cupro-nickel envelope. Starting 1930 the jacets was made of GMCS


#10

Treshkin: Thanks; will file away that information as well as your previous post on this cartridge. Jack


#11

As we start to discussed bullets for Russian 7,62 Nagant cartridges, may be interesting addition to this topic could be that:

  • from 1935 was produced some experimental lots of 7,62-mm Nagant cartridges with bullets with steel core. This type of bullet was not approved because of difficult manufacturing (for that time) and low accuracy
  • in early 1960s was developed sporting variant of Nagant cartridge with lead wud-cut type bullet B-1 (W-1) for use with sporting modification of Nagant revolver ТОЗ-36 (TOZ-36) developed in 1962
  • in the end of 1960-s was developed shortened version of B-1 Nagant cartridge - 4ЕЛП-1000 (4ELP-1000), for use with sporting pistol МЦ 58 2Е (MC 58 2E). This pistol wasn’t put in serial production and 4ELP cartridge was used with sporting revolver ТОЗ-49 (TOZ-49), which serial production started in 1971
  • in late 1980s, 7,62-mm Nagant cartridges was loaded with TT bullets with round head, steel core and GMCS envelope.

#12

Treshkin, was the 1935 steel core production somehow related to the steel cases made in 1935 and 1936? Like some sort of saving program for colored metals or the like?


#13

Yes, it was an attemp to introduce saving material technologies in mass production. In cal. 7,62-mm Nagant it was realised in experimental lots of GMCS cases, Brass washed steel cases and bullets with steel core. But technological problems, low quality and low economy for such small cartridge stopped this program for 7,62-mm Nagant cartridges. I think that bullets with steel core was not related to steel cases directly, I mean that cartridges with GMCS cases, which I ever seen, was loaded with standard bullets.


#14

Well, for curiosity reasons I’ll cut one open then and see if I’ll get lucky.


#15

Good luck:)!


#16

Gospodin Treshkin,
One more related question. Alex guessed that this SFM cartridge was a dummy. It still has a projectile sitting inside, even though it is a bit lifted, it has no crimps and the primer is struck. Any way to know for sure? Would a dummy have multiple primer strikes?
image


#17

With a primer seal like that I would call it a dud. Any powder feel or sound when shaken?

Sorry, meant “dud”!


#18

I suspect it is a misfired round as well, but not due to the lack or presence of any primer seal. SFM is famous for making dummy rounds, and many of them are sealed like live cartridges. In some calibers, I have more factory dummy variations than I do live rounds. While not 100% of the time, SFM dummies usually have a hole(s) in the case, often very tiny. Some have as many as five, the latter usually in an “X” pattern with the center hole larger than the other four holes. These are dummies originally intended for cartridge boards, with the four small holes being for wire attachment to the board. Primers were, for the most part, originally inert, unsnapped cups.

Regarding the number of times the dummy has been snapped, that just depends on circumstances during the “life” of the cartridge. Some made for display or souvenirs never get snapped. Some (usually not SFM, but never say “never”) start out at the factory with snapped primers, and some that were unsnapped and used as functioning dummies may get snapped once, or a hundred times. Just depends on how long it stays in use and who is using it.

Some dummy rounds, although not generally from SFM, are discovered that look exactly like loaded cartridges. I have a Polish 9 x 18 mm Makarov cartridge that has no indications of being inert. The primer is not snapped, the primer and case mouth seals are there, and there are no holes in the case, or special markings or features to show it is a dummy. I got a duplicate and gave it to Frank N. on our Forum here, a personal friend as well, for sectioning. He is quite expert. He found that there was no powder in the cartridge and that the primer cup was also inert! I took a chance and pulled the bullet on the one in my collection and found it, too, was a dummy cartridge. No idea why these were made.

At any rate, the point is, it is not always easy to tell when a cartridge is inert at all, and when you know from a snapped primer that it did not fire, whether or not it is a factory dummy. The same with holes in cases. I snapped, knowingly, a primer on a “factory dummy” given to me that I was suspicious of. The bullet was pulled first, and there was no powder in the case. There was one medium-size hole in the case, but large enough to shake powder out of the case thru it. You all know what is coming - the primer fired. It was NOT inert. That was a live round that someone had inerted for some reason or another, and eventually was represented to be a genuine factory dummy.

I have no idea how one would remove a bullet from a Russian Nagant Revoler cartridge to see if there was powder, by the way, without pretty much ruining the cartridge.


#19

Thanks, no sound inside when shaken.


#20

[quote=“sksvlad”]Gospodin Treshkin,
One more related question. Alex guessed that this SFM cartridge was a dummy. It still has a projectile sitting inside, even though it is a bit lifted, it has no crimps and the primer is struck. Any way to know for sure? Would a dummy have multiple primer strikes?
[/quote]

Vlad, I really don’t know the answer on this question. I think, the better way is to drill this round and check if powder load is present or not.