Very nice! Just that in 1939 there was no WW2 for the USSR.
Very true, please forgive my mistake. I would guess it is similar to wartime production ammo at least early on though. Anybody have variations of this?
No need to forgive anything, we are all learning from each other. And all here know that I am amongst the top 10 to be incorrect with something I have said before.
The variations of this cartrideg are few. Basically standard ball (early with nickel plated bullets), blank and dummy. The most exotic ones are steel cases from the mid 1930s.
In documents there is also a silencer load with a pointed bullet but nobody has ever seen one.
Dear forum members,
The Second World War began on September 1, 1939 for the whole world, and especially for the USSR. By the end of November 1939, the following events occurred:
September 17, 1939 - the invasion of Soviet troops to Poland;
September 29, 1939 - the annexation of the eastern regions of Poland to the USSR;
October 18, 1939 - entry of Soviet troops to Estonia;
October 23, 1939 - entry of Soviet troops to Latvia;
During November-December, 1939 - entry of Soviet troops to Lithuania;
November 30, 1939 - the beginning of the Soviet-Finnish war.
Thus, the Second World War began in the USSR even earlier than for most European countries.
Indeed, it’s easily forgotten (and not taught everywhere, sadly) that not only Hitler was obsessed with Lebensraum.
Still going on today, but with someone else at the wheel…
1939 was not the ware entry for the whole world as is known. The US for example definately entered WW2 in 1941.
The USSR considered WW2 for them from 1941 when THEY were attacked. Also the Soviet attack on Poland is widely muted in Russia still today, not taught in schools and not known by so many adults.
The normal Russian on the street will always date WW2 to 1941 to 1945.
Despite Wikipedia being questionable here what it says about:
And here the monument for it (one of the many):
And not to speak of all those tin can republics which declared war on Germany in 1944 or even 1945 when they tried to get a free-rider ticket for the victor’s side (knowing Germany would not be able to react anymore) and conveniently got rid of all their debts they had to Germany.
Wikipedia itself is not a source but a collection of sources. Always use the cited references as the real sources.
I work in education and the amount of people who say “Wikipedia is not a source” annoys me to no end…
Ole, all is valid what you are saying.
My “questionable” referred to the fact that many people are writing there without citing sources and are spreading errors etc.
So use should always be cautious and cross-checked in case it is about important things.
Writer in his message cited the correct dates of initial Soviet actions, as far as I can tell.
Jochem, I was not questioning the time line but made a point of how this part of History is defined in Russia.
Also between the Soviet occupation of Poland’s east and the German attack in 1941 the USSR basically saw no action.
Finland was an action between 1939 and 1940 and then again ceased. Only to be continued later in 1941.
Anyhow there is no black or white in all this and we are not going to re-write history.
Alex, I think the Poles would consider the Soviets to be at war in 1939.
Hmm, ok, the British and the French then did not consider the Soviets to have attacked and occupied Poland as the two declared war only to Germany.
It seems it is all about perceptions…
Yes, but Alex’ point (if I got it correctly) is that the Russian/Soviet view is/was that the Soviet union was not at war until it was invaded itself.
Its invasions of Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia were all seens as some “action” and not as invasions/offensives.
Look for example on the Katyn massacres which were, and still are, heavily hushed down and denied/not acknowledged.
This military political line continues to this day, with Russian “interference” in Chechnya, Georgia, and maybe most noticably Ukraine, where Russia firstly denies any involvement, then claims it is acting out of necessity to “defend the Russian speaking population in East Ukraine”.
One of their arguments “justifying” their invasion of Crimea is that Crimea has a mostly Russian-speaking population.
For those who skipped history class the week this was the theme:
The reason there were very few Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars left on Crimea is because Stalin deported the vast majority of these to Siberia and central Asian countries such as Kazakhstan to work in punitive collective farms.
In addition, Ukraine gave up its nuclear arms during the Soviet split-up, in trade for assurances their borders and independent sovereignity. Some years later, guess who’s back…
Russia faked a mortar/artillery shelling of a Russian village to justify the invasion of Finland with the goal of capturing Helsinki (which they failed miserably at).
The utterly vast majority of all Russians I have ever spoken to (not few by now!) disregard Western views of the Winter war, Katyn massacre, Georgian invasion, the Chechen and Caucasus wars, and the current Ukrainian proxy wars as “Western NATO propaganda spread to smear Russia’s reputation”.
You tell me how true that is…
With no intention of starting a political debate, as everything I just stated is well recorded factual information available from different independent sources -
Also, interestingly enough, the Russian wikipedia page re: the shelling of Mainila states that only foreign sources “claim” the shelling was a false-flag operation, and heavily implies the shelling was an offensive maneuver by Finland (despite every other Wikipedia page citing sources that show the shelling was a deliberate Soviet false flag operation).
To put it simply - it’s very clear what Russia (and other countries) does to hide unsavory history.
Ole, add Romania (1940). The occupied part then became Moldova.
In 1941 Moldova was taken back (liberated) by German troops accompanied by Romanians. Later in about 1944 Germany was defeated from the region and defacto got re-occupied by the Soviets. In 1992 Moldova left the USSR and became an independent state (not rejoining Romania), the same moment ethnic Russians started a civil war in order to refuse to come under a potential Romanian or other (Moldovan) government. All organized, armed and funded (including “volunteers” and troops without insignia on their uniforms) by Russia. Basically the same that happened in Ukraine 22 years later (Krimea and Donbass).
Funny or not: today on 9th of May Moldova is celebrating the end of WW2 and deliberation from German troops. Defacto praising it’s own occupation. In my eyes a perversion that shows how many things are just a question of how they are called and how superiors want them to be percepted in public (by abuse of mass media).
The sad part is that the same is valid for the west and our “democratic governments”.
This whole here shows again how tight ammunition is related to history and politics…
You guys are all right. When I travel from US to Canada, there is a sudden huge change. On American side, General Washington is a hero and his troops are patriots, but when you cross into Canada, the same people become murderous villains who kill civilians and burn Montreal. All depends upon who is talking.
Actually, the Russians invaded Poland a few days after Germany to take the western half as part of a deal with Hitler. They engaged in active combat against the Poles and committed all kinds of atrocities. Id say that counts as being in the war!
Politics on the bourgeois is priceless, and so on “ganzovsky” …))))
Dear forum members!
It must be borne in mind that Soviet official historiography either silenced or distorted events that occurred between September 1, 1939, and June 22, 1941.
The Soviet official historiography asserted:
- Western Ukraine and Western Belarus were formed not as a result of the division of Poland between Germany and the USSR, but as if by themselves; no one forced them;
- Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia voluntarily joined the USSR;
- Bukovina and Bessarabia voluntarily joined the USSR;
- Finland itself is to blame for the beginning of the Soviet-Finnish war.
The purpose of the Soviet official historiography was to hide the fact that at the time of the start of the Second World War, the Soviet Union and Germany were military allies, and both were aggressors.
Most of my relatives before the war lived in the eastern regions of Poland, which were annexed to the USSR in 1939. After June 22, 1941, they all died, but not in the army, but were shot or killed in the death camps.
Most of my life was spent in the former USSR. I was born shortly after the war. I did not learn the history of the war from school textbooks or articles from Wikipedia (this word appeared many decades later), but from the stories of my surviving relatives and war veterans, many of whom were still relatively young people.
Everything related to the Second World War is very sensitive for me and the people of my generation.