7.62x39--Load Types by Country--DDR


#1

Well I think we have the Load Types, Case Materials and Country lists pretty well complete. Now to put it all together, which was the reason for compiling the above lists.

Format is:

COUNTRY NAME
Load Type from list: Official abbreviation
ID: Identifying features for the load type
Designation: Full official designation
(Translitrated if not Latin alphabet)
Case Types: List of the case materials used for this load

Let’s start with a country that does not have a large number of load types.
I’m sure there are DDR load types I have not listed. I am also sure I most likely have some of the designations, etc. wrong. Please add or correct, using my format, any information to complete the list.

DDR (EAST GERMANY)

Ball: Patrone, M-43 
	ID: Pointed FMJ Bullet
	Designation: Patrone M.43
	Case Types:Lacquered Steel; Aluminum Plaated Brass				 

Armor Piercing: Patrone M.43 SKE
ID: Pointed FMJ Bullet with Violet Tip
Designation: ???
Case Types:Lacquered Steel

Blank, Rose Crimp: PP, M-43
ID: Extended Neck with Rose Crimp
Designation: Platzpatrone M.43
Case Types: Lacquered Steel

Dummy-Fluted: ???
ID: Pointed FMJ Bullet; 4 Flutes on Case
Designation: ???
Case Types: Lacquered Steel

Dummy-Plastic: ???
ID: One Piece Black Plastic Case and Bullet with Steel Base
Designation: ???
Case Types: Plastic

Grenade Launcher: ???
ID: Extended Neck, Blue Rose Crimp
Designation: ???
Case Types: Lacquered Steel

Proof-Barrel Test: ???
ID: Long Pointed FMJ Bullet
Designation: HochDruckPatrone, M.43
Case Types: Lacquered Steel

Short Range, Ball, Metal Bullet: Patrone M-43, Ub.
	ID: Semi-Pointed All Black FMJ Bullet
	Designation: Patrone M.43 Ubungspatrone
	Case Types:	Lacquered Steel 

Short Range, Tracer, Metal Bullet: Patrone M-43, Ub. Ls.
ID: Semi-Pointed All Green FMJ Bullet
Designation: Patrone M.43 Ubungspatrone Leuchtspur
Case Types: Lacquered Steel

Tracer: Patrone, M-43, Ls.
ID: Pointed FMJ Bullet with Green Tip
Designation: Patrone M.43 Leuchtspur
Case Types: Lacquered Steel


#2

Ron,
if you want to go DDR-official you will see a few necessary changes:
there is no dash and no dot in between M and 43. Sometimes a blank space though.

About the format, please explain to me what you actually mean:
Format is:
Load Type from list: Official abbreviation => on boxes? This has changed with time sometimes.
Designation: Full official designation => from drawings, manuals, etc?

If so here is what I’d make out of your list:

Ball:

  1. 7,62 mm Patrone M 43
  2. 7,62 mm Patr. M 43
  3. M 43
    ID: Pointed FMJ Bullet
    Designation: 7,62 mm Patrone M 43
    Case Types: Lacquered Steel; Aluminium Plated Brass => are you shure about the latter? But there were copper and brass washed steel in trials.

Armor Piercing: (my assumption: M 43 SKE)
ID: Pointed FMJ Bullet with Violet Tip
Designation: ???
Case Types:Lacquered Steel

Blank, Rose Crimp:

  1. 7,62 mm Platzpatrone M43
  2. Platzpatrone M43-7,62 mm geb

#3

Ron,
I found one more addition of which I only have the box:

Reference: Vergl.-B.
ID: Pointed FMJ Bullet with White Tip
Designation: (assumed: 7,62 mm Vergleichsbeschu


#4

Hans–Thank you for the reply. You have pretty well understood what I am going for.

First line is the English for the Load Type followed by the abbreviation as normally seen on boxes or used in the literature or by collectors.

The Official Designation is mostly a full spelled out meaning of the letters used in the abbreviation and the full nomenclature used by the military.

To answer your questions about some of my original comments:

Ball–Aluminum Plated Brass–This is an assumption on my part based on a listing by Jack Wells in his checklist of his collection. He lists the following:

“05 85 case is dull aluminum colored.” “Experimental Finish”

This may actually be a light gray lacquered finish.

M 43 SKE–What does SKE stand for? Is the tip a dark or light violet?

You listed 3 different abbreviations for the blank. Are they 3 different types of blank that look different?

Fluted Dummy–How would this normally be abbreviated?

Grenade Launcher: M43 PTr --I assume this would be M43 Patrone Triebkartusche

Short Range, Tracer–are both the Black with Green Tip and All Green bullet the same load? Is this a manufacturing difference in marking or an official change in marking? If it was an official change, when was it changed?

You list the following as an additional DDR load type:

Weapon Test: 7,62 mm Patrone M 43 (overstamped:) Ger


#5

How about the bean bag cartridges?


#6

EOD–What do you mean by “Bean Bag Cartridge”?


#7

Ron, the “05 85” case is not aluminum, just a light grey lacquer colored finish. In German it was called “ganzlackiert”, the exact translation of which escapes me at the moment.

SKE stands for “Stahl KErn” (Steel Core). I beleive this was intended to be an export item, so no official designation exists beyond “SKE”. Also referred to as “Hartkern” or “Hardcore”. The violet color on my examples is medium to dark.

AKMS


#8

AKMS–Thanks for the info. I will edit the master list to reflect this new information. Please note that Jack Wells DID NOT say it was Aluminum plated brass. That was a miss-interpretation on my part.


#9

Guys, you keep an old man busy tonight!

Ron,
[b]"Ball–Aluminum Plated Brass–This is an assumption on my part based on a listing by Jack Wells in his checklist of his collection. He lists the following:

“05 85 case is dull aluminum colored.” “Experimental Finish”

This may actually be a light gray lacquered finish."[/b]
My thoughts are that after the turn a lot of unfinished/unloaded components were in the shelves and someone tinkered a quick bargain out of those before the plant was closed.

M 43 SKE–What does SKE stand for? Is the tip a dark or light violet?
I neither saw a confirmed one nor do I have the drawings/spec. I have seen though a ball round with kind of dark blue tip lacquer like it earlier was used for primer seals before they were red. But there is no marking on the box and I better say nothing.

You listed 3 different abbreviations for the blank. Are they 3 different types of blank that look different?
No, they are all the same, just the box print changed with the time. I tried to put oldest term first. Cartridges actually changed in the meantime, like wax seal becoming (primer-)blue seal becoming no seal, but that does not show in the designation.

Fluted Dummy–How would this normally be abbreviated?
The flutes are not mentioned, so thex are Exerzierpatronen, Ex-Patronen, Expa like the plastic. - As far as I know!

Grenade Launcher: M43 PTr --I assume this would be M43 Patrone Triebkartusche
Again this obscene word, Treibkartusche I like better, please look for my explanation in my earlier thread. I can only speculate, I never saw the official designation. Frankly, my belly rotates when Patrone and Kartusche are combined to describe a single thing. A bit as if you spoke about a truck car. But you never know.

Short Range, Tracer–are both the Black with Green Tip and All Green bullet the same load? Is this a manufacturing difference in marking or an official change in marking? If it was an official change, when was it changed?
Yes, they are the same load. The first was the originally introduced round of about 1975. In 1977 the process was already simplified, bullets were no longer dipped into black lacquer first to later receive a green tip. The whole thing was then dipped into green.

[b]You list the following as an additional DDR load type:

Weapon Test: 7,62 mm Patrone M 43 (overstamped:) Ger


#10

Alex, Butter bei die Fische! What do you mean?

[quote=“AKMS”]Ron, the “05 85” case is not aluminum, just a light grey lacquer colored finish. In German it was called “ganzlackiert”, the exact translation of which escapes me at the moment.

SKE stands for “Stahl KErn” (Steel Core). I beleive this was intended to be an export item, so no official designation exists beyond “SKE”. Also referred to as “Hartkern” or “Hardcore”. The violet color on my examples is medium to dark.[/quote]
Better German would be “ganz lackiert” = “entirely lacquered”. True, the whole cartridge, including bullet was dipped into a water clear sealant. The case colour is purely that of the parkerized case and does look like aluminium in colour.

With “Stahl KErn” I’m not happy. They never used upper cases in one word, so if it was right this would rather be “SK”.
BUT, “Stahl Kern” is not German, it is “Stahlkern” instead, and this does not necessarily imply it is hardened to be a Hartkern. For me reasons enough to wait for a better decipherment.


#11

Hans–Thanks for adding to the information.

One more question on the Grenade Launcher. What, in your opinion, does PTr. stand for?

Thanks for the approximate dates for the change in ID features of the Short Range, Tracer. Are there any other DDR Load Types where the method of identifying the load type has changed?

Enhanced Precision Ball: M 43 S–What does the “S” stand for?

Helmet Test: M43/P6–What does the “P” stand for?


#12

I mean the LTL cartridges with plastic projectiles which supposedly have shot filled cloth bags inside. I never seen the inside of one.


#13

Here are some East German loads that either were not on the original list or any reply, or were only touched on briefly. If I included any on the list, forgive me. This is a rush job. No time to look up official titles, etc, if any. I think they are all covered in Gerd Mischingers books which anyone interested in this caliber should have.

Left to right: Ball, brass case 04 * 62. I would not regard this as experimental! Ball (actually bullet in fired case for mailing, unfortunately, so may not be original bullet) CWS case 04 76; Blank, shorter OAL than most of this style, no color tip 04 75; Blank, Black Tip, Black primer 04 83; Blank, blue tip, blue primer 04 83; blank, yellow tip, yellow primer, 04 83; Ball, brass-washed steel case 05 84; Blank, extended neck, light blue tip 05 78; Blank, extended neck, red tip 05 81, Red plastic bullet short range (?) 05 86; Yellow plastic bullet short range (?) 05 86. I am a bit supicious of the two with plastic bullets. As I recall, they are in the Mischinger book on “05” but I could be wrong. I have another with a shorter, lighter yellow
bullet, but I would bet it is a fake, and I didn’t even bother to picture it.

I don’t know what your parameters are, so maybe this will not be of any help or interest at all.

Collection of John Moss


#14

Originally posted by EOD in a different thread.

The two right ones should be the “bean bags” I mentioned in another thread. There exist some more versions.


#15

Can anyone confirm that the Red and Yellow Plastic bullet loads shown in John Moss’s picture are “Bean Bag” loads? If they are, what is the difference between the Red and Yellow loads? What are the Official designations?

EOD–What does “LTL” cartridges stand for?

Are all 4 of the short rose crimped blanks shown Grenade Launcher cartridges?
If so, what do the different tip colors mean? Official Designations?

Are both of the Extended Neck Blanks just Noise Blanks? If so what do the different colors mean? Official designations?


#16

John–What are the titles of the “Gerd Mischingers books” you mentioned?
Where can I get them? How much do they cost?


#17

Ron,

Bean bags: to my knowledge they were experimental, someone may correct me if I am wrong. I also would appreciate some info on the projectile design.

LTL: less than lethal

The “blanks” are actually propelling cartridges “Kartusche Typ 89” for the nail driving device “BSG-725”.
There are the following colors (and powder load in milli gram):
green 700 mg
yellow 800 mg
blue 900 mg
red 1000 mg
black 1100 mg
white 1200 mg
There is also a HPT cartridge with a purple seal, unfortunately I have no details about or proof of this info.

The two extended neck blanks:
The blue one is the regular propelling cartridge for the RGD-5 rifle grenade (actually a hand grenade with a plastic fin section for a discharger cup - unique GDR design). Designation is “M43 PTr”.
The red one I was told is also the same cartridge but unfortunately I have no proof for this info.


#18

I can only speculate. P usually abbreviates Patrone, Tr smells a lot like Treib. We must not forget that the German language tends to combine words, so Treib might not stand alone. For example "Ger


#19

The first crimped, short blank I show is probably NOT one of the nail-driving series. It is a little shorter than the others, and has no evidence of ever having a colored tip (which, due to condition, might be totally gone) or colored primer (which even in this condition would still be showing some color).

I think it might be nothing more than a movie blank, or just a salutory blank, even though it isn’t the standard pattern for noise blanks.

Anyone else have any positive information about that one?

I am glad to hear that my plastic ones are not fakes. I wonder now about my shorter, lighter yellow plastic bulleted round. I didn’t even show it because I was so suspicious it was a fake, even though it (and the others) were given to me free of cost or trade.

Gerd’s Books are:

Der Volkseigne Betrieb (VEB) Mechanische Werkst


#20

[quote=“JohnMoss”]

I am glad to hear that my plastic ones are not fakes. I wonder now about my shorter, lighter yellow plastic bulleted round. I didn’t even show it because I was so suspicious it was a fake, even though it (and the others) were given to me free of cost or trade.
.[/quote]

John, I personally also hope that they are no fakes. I wish we had proof for it.