Maybe Chinese Norinco?
An image of the cartridge, headstamp and markings would be of great benefit in rendering identification.
You label says it is made in Hungary. There is an Austrian company in Hungary called Berger, berger-maschinen.at/ungarn.html, maybe it is the one. They also own Banska Bystrica.
Thanks for that tip Sksvlad
I thought these cartridges where from Germany.
Do you have some explanation for the fact that all ammunition are opened and then closed again in a rough way and with no varnish or any seal ? I also think that the primers are not original. This could meant that some firm bought surplus ammo and then opened individually all specimens, removed all primers and substituted the primers and powder charge, replacing the original (and now damaged) bullets again just with a small crimp.
Why would some one do that? It appears to be a very expensive process, and what would be the gain? Why not just use the surplus ammunition as it was originally?
If the projectile and the cartridge were separated and then re-united (re-sealed), I may suggest only one reason for that: someone needed to replace the gun powder. The word “Munitionshandel” means “ammunition trading” and, to me, implies that this CJB entity is at least a re-seller if not a re-manufacturer. I’d love to see a photo of it.
Probably re-manufactured to Replace the corrosive Primer with a NON-corrosive one. In Europe where the cost of any ammo is very high, it would be economical to do this. The Powder was probably OK, but the primers may hyave been either unreliable or just plain corrosive ( as is most Com-Bloc ammo)
We need a HS detail photo.
The other solution is that it was "special " ammo (AP, Tr, API, etc, which had the projectile removed and replaced by Pulled Normal ball FMJs from defective ( ie, rusty) ammo.)
The description of the ammo shows that it is standard mild steel core ball, with a Hungarian type of Military Powder, the Work done by Berger, in Hungary, and “handled” (traded) by CBJ Ammo Trading.
Regards, Doc AV
Thanks to you all for your tips on this matter.
These are the best photos I could get from the cartridges and the pliers marks are visible in the bullet. I also include a photo of the powder. The headstamps are not very distinct in this photos, but in all the ammunition found are
If you go to the very first main page of this IAA web site, on the left there is a green tab called “Headstamp codes to identify makers”. If you click on “2” and scroll down to “21”, you’ll see the following: M
Yes, but this are not original ammunition for sure. I think that some company just recycled the cases.
I have South African cartridges with side printed headstamp very close (different text but same font)
The marks on the Projectile are typical of a mechanised Bullet Puller;
Such machines are used in so-called “demilitarization” of old Military ammunition (another UN-inspired stupidity); EG, after the DDR was re-united with (West) Germany, large quantities of SA ammo was “dismantled” by this method, with a view to converting the Nitrocellulose based powder into Fertilizer. The result was that the cases ( copper washed steel or lacquered steel) were nearly worthless as scrap, being contaminated by either the copper coating or the brass primers; the Powder cost more to convert than its resultant value as Fertilizer, and the projectiles, being a steel-cored copper jacket design, was worthless as either copper scrap or as steel scrap at the time (1990s), as the cost of separating the cores from the jackets over-rode the scrap value of the individual metals…
Nowadays, the ammunition fetches high prices in Europe for shooters,as most EU nations have loosened restrictions on Semi-Auto rifles and of course, Bolt actions. There are still calibre restrictions in some Countries(ie, France) and magazine capacity in others (Italy), but Club shooters in many countries can own Modified StG57 (FNFAL) Modified G3(HK 91) Modified AK47, etc.(Modified==Local restrictions Plus conversion to Semi-Automatic only)
The ammunition in question shows the regulation German Calibre/supplier marking (Dot print on case)…It has to be printed individually on any Military case, as there is no calibre indication on the headstamp as there is normally on Commercial ammunition. Another “feel good” stupid restriction…that makes sure that No " Original sealed packets" of Milsurp ammo can be sold in Germany.
This ink stamping, originally done by hand, is now also mechanised;–probably by the Hungarian plant, where the ammo was “Re-manufactured”…The dates on the ammo put it well in the Standard (UN again) " defective range" of age for both Primers and Powder… ie the “Rule of Fives” long used by Armies the world over, at least in principle…First Five years since manufacture, “Combat-ready ammo”; Second Five years since manufacture," Training and Combat Emergency Reserve"; Third Five years, “Training Only” ; After 15 years, either convert to Blanks( no longer economical or technically appropriate), Relegate to Army-Supported Militia or Civilian Marksmanship Programs, Sell as Surplus, or destroy (Burn, dump at sea, etc).
The Powder could be either the Original Loading, or new powder of the same type to retain the original ballistic values. The Primers look like new replacements, as they are not lacquered.
Any other ideas , especially from EU collectors?
Primers are original, in those days Hungary did not apply p.a. in this calibre.
Sorry, I don’t know what is p.a. ???
Desculpe, it is the primer annulus / primer seal.
Thanks Hans, I was not aware of that abbreviation.
I wonder what CJB stands for ???
Victor - “P.A.” simply means “Primer annulus,” a reference to the primer seal.
I cannot speak for these rounds with the European (German?) required marking on the side of the case, but the reason a lot of bullets were pulled from surplus 7.62 x 39mm ammunition for exportation to the U.S.A. was to rid them of iron or steel-cored bullets, illegal to import into the U.S. They were replaced with a lead core bullet. I have samples of that in ammo redone on East German rounds, although since I only collect visual differences in East German ammunition, I cannot now identify them because they weight (OL cartridge weight) identically to original rounds, and I only saved them in the dates I was missing in the normal rounds. I should have written “lead” on the side of them, but when I got them, I was not so serious about my DDR collection - it was just a whim caused by “falling into” a great number of nice specimens right before the wall came down.
Again, I don’t know if they have such laws in Germany or Europe about the core material, so don’t know if this applies to these rounds at all, or if Doc Avs excellent description applies. Maybe both.
Vitor, sorry, I cannot help with an explanation for CJB, fist time I encounter this.
John, it is fairly simple when it comes down to lead core bullets on DDR cases to say if it is the original iron core bullet or not. Lead core bullets are truly pointed while the typical DDR bullets have this funny extended point serving to avoid scrap during the drawing process. Difficult to explain but you will see the difference at first glimpse.
Hans - thanks. I know exactly what you are talking about on the DDR rounds. I will check that out.