7.62x41mm?


#1

I understand that the “original” cartridge for the AK-47 was a 7.62x41mm, not the 7.62x39mm we all know and love. Does anyone have any data on this cartridge? Pics, headstamps, dimensions? Was this cartridge also called the M-1943 and was it the cartridge reportedly used in the first SKS-45 rifles that were combat tested during WWII? Are any examples of this cartridge in private colelctions or are they only known in Russian museums? I’m most curious about where the 2mm case length difference is. Is it in the case body or the neck? I was thinking about resizing a 7.62x45mm case to 7.62x39mm dimensions and trimming it to 41mm for comparison and display purposes, but only if it would approximate the original cartridge dimensions. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

AKMS


#2

The best (only?) info I’ve seen on this round is in Peter Labbett’s “ASSAULT RIFLE AMMUNITION 5.6mm TO 11mm CALIBRE”.
The 7.62x41 was apparently in an unheadstamped CWS case. The pic shows a round that looks the same as a 7.62x39, but with a longer neck, identical to the shoulder.


#3

Correct, the design to the 39mm case was changed in 1948, this is also the earliest 39mm case known so far.
The neck of the 41mm was longer - just the neck. The projectile was then of course with a shorter ogive and had a lead core only. The first 39mm cases also had lead core projectiles with no boat tail by the way.
The existing specimen I have seen have had no head stamps but Russian sources report at least two different factoy codes which have been applied.
The production of the 41mm case started in 1944.
For the 41mm case there was even a “DD” soft point projectile like for the 7.62x54R. (no hunting cartridges)


#4

In the year 1973 the Dutch(NWM) and German factory (IWK)where experiment with the mittelpatrone 7,62x40
IWK= Industrie Werke Karlsruhe,A.-G Germany
headstamp = 7,62x40 IWK 62


#5

Gyroject - You say that the NWM and DWM were experimenting with the Mittelpatrone in 1973. Do you mean 1963? The box seems to be dated in June 1963.


#6

John
Yes sorry I mean June 1963
Thank you!!


#7

So, is the overall cartridge length of the 7.62x39mm and 7.62x41mm are the same? The shorter projectile ogive making up for the longer case in the 7.62x41mm?

Thanks for the information!

AKMS


#8

Good evening! (here it is 1.13, a.m., sunday July the 1st)

As stated, the 7,62x41 cartridge is the direct predecessor of the 7,62x39 M.43. It was designed by [b]Nikola


#9

Philippe, I’m sorry to correct you or repeat myself.
The first known head stamps of the 39mm case are from 1948 (1949 is also existing). The 39mm cased cartridge was adopted in 1949.

The first SKS (also named SKS-45) and RPD-44 were chambered for the 41mm case. These have been used as you mentined in troop trials in Bielorussia. Later when the 39mm case was accepted as the final design the guns were rebarreled.

The designers of the M43 cartridges were:
N.M. Elizarov and B.V. Semin with assistance of cartridge factory employees P.V. Ryazanov, S.D. Orekhov, I.T. Mel’nikov, B.N. Baskleev and GAU (Artillery Directorate) members N.N. Dubovitskiy, A.N. Sergeev, A.R. Emets, A.Ya. Bashmarin and I.Ya. Litichevskiy.

Code 543 is the plant in Kazan.


#10

Phillipe, thank you very much for that most informative reply! You mention that the lead core is “hardened”. How did you determine that? Is it simply a high antimony alloy or hardened some other way?

Does any one have a side by side image available of a 7.62x41mm and a 7.62x39mm together? That would be great to see!

Many thanks!

AKMS


#11

The antimony content is correct.


#12

And here an image of the projectile of the 7.42x41. The one on the right is a standard 7.62x39 projectile for comparison.

Unfortunately I can’t find my technical drawings of the cartridge.


#13

Excellent! Darkened by age or on purpose?

Thank you,

AKMS


#14

I think it is age.


#15

[quote=“EOD”]Philippe, I’m sorry to correct you or repeat myself.
The first known head stamps of the 39mm case are from 1948 (1949 is also existing). The 39mm cased cartridge was adopted in 1949.

The first SKS (also named SKS-45) and RPD-44 were chambered for the 41mm case. These have been used as you mentined in troop trials in Bielorussia. Later when the 39mm case was accepted as the final design the guns were rebarreled.

The designers of the M43 cartridges were:
N.M. Elizarov and B.V. Semin with assistance of cartridge factory employees P.V. Ryazanov, S.D. Orekhov, I.T. Mel’nikov, B.N. Baskleev and GAU (Artillery Directorate) members N.N. Dubovitskiy, A.N. Sergeev, A.R. Emets, A.Ya. Bashmarin and I.Ya. Litichevskiy.

Code 543 is the plant in Kazan.[/quote]

Can you post photos of these 48 and 49 headstamped 7.62x39s?


#16

1949 is here:
213.147.167.60/blaze/download.php?id=5287

1948: I do not have the copyright to post it.

Before I forget, the two known manufacturers of the 41mm case are 543 and 539 according to Russian sources.


#17

[quote=“EOD”]1949 is here:
213.147.167.60/blaze/download.php?id=5287

1948: I do not have the copyright to post it.

Before I forget, the two known manufacturers of the 41mm case are 543 and 539 according to Russian sources.[/quote]

Looks like a very good site, even if one doesn’t speak German. Thanks for the URL; I signed up for an account.

.


#18

Good idea, it is the mainly German language (Austrian based) ammo forum.
English is language #2 there.
Recently we even got modern ammo into it, before it was limited to ammo till 1945 only.


#19

Soviet 7.62x41 experimental cartridge provided by Dr. Regenstreif shown next to the 7.62x39.

neat!


#20

There exists also a 7.62x41 without groove and is dated in the 1980s. The case dimensions are the same. Any ideas what it might be?