7.62x51 HS


#1

Today while trying to make an HK 21-E function and experiencing feeding problems. These 3 HS were used. There was a significant velocity and pressure difference between the case’s with the green annulus and the red primer annulus. The green (brass colored primer) were much higher pressure than the red. The red was linked in disintegrating links and the green in fixed links. By looking at the HS can it be determined if the loadings were supposed to be significantly different. This gun did not like the cartridges with the red sealant. Barely ejected them if it fed at all. I hope the scan is clear enough.
Can you tell me who made these? FMJ ball projectile.
Thanks.


#2

The ‘green’ rounds are Argentine milsurp, and the ‘red’ round is a Czech clandestine export round. The different color primer seals have no significance. I don’t know about the Argentine, but the Czech is known for being pretty corrosive. Clean the whole gas system of your HK very well for corrosive ammo.


#3

Thanks for the reply and info! There was a significant difference in point of impact and report and the ejection. Thanks for the heads up on the corrrosive Czech loads. This is not a gas system MG, it utilizes a delayed roller blowback system. But will still do a thorough cleaning. These are supposed to digest higher pressure loadings better, so future bulk ammo purchases will not include any of the Czech.
Thanks again.


#4

Jon, I wonder of these Czechoslovak ones are really “clandestine” since the two circles are registred trade marksof S&B. At leas so I have been told by somebody who is well into this subject.


#5

The Czech S&B “.308 two circles date” cartridge replaced the “ZV date” Export cartridges in the 1980s. They were a generic type 7,62x51 ammo, Corrosive primer, and sold thru “Omnipol” to US Importers (Interarms, Century etc.
They were common in the US and Australia in the 80s and 90s.

Packing was in anonymous Light Blue or grey packets, with simply “.308” stamped on the packets ( similar Packets were used for .303Br" and so marked.
NO factory or Country ID.
But the crates were standard Czech Army green wooden crates, with a zinc alloy liner, and for the “.308” there was the Following Czech style ID stencilled on:
7,62 T65 Quantity ( 800? per case) and the usual Czech Powder details etc,
all in the military czech layout on the side of the crate.

The “T 65” refers to the US designator of the eventual 7,62 Nato case.

They probably were a general export product for the third world; but a lot was sold directly to US/Australia as “military .308 ammo” .

I have found the case suitable for reloading (Berdan) and reforming. of course, the extremely corrosive Priming has ruined many a rifle here in Australia.

Regards,
Doc AV


#6

[quote=“Sportclay”]The red was linked in disintegrating links and the green in fixed links. By looking at the HS can it be determined if the loadings were supposed to be significantly different. This gun did not like the cartridges with the red sealant. Barely ejected them if it fed at all. I hope the scan is clear enough.
Can you tell me who made these? FMJ ball projectile.
Thanks.[/quote]

Sportclay,

Can you please give details of the belt links that these rounds were in?

gravelbelly


#7

Doc, there were also cardboard boxes which looked Czechoslovak military style with the “T65” given as model designation. Do you happen to know for whom these were made?


#8

The links on the Czech ammo was mostly M13 type. Some have a 3 letter marking beneath the M13, Is this a mfg code? Other marked links I have in front of me right now are marked; FM3 with a nato mark, RG 76 with nato mark. I am not all that familiar with this military ordinance. I am the range officer for a local gun club and a friend of mine is a title II manufacturer, MTM Manufacturing. Not a common business in New York State. He uses the range to test fire and trouble shoot a wide variety of SMG’s and MG’s and other class 3 weapons. He can only use the range when I am there. I asked him last evening if this is the way he bought it and he said yes, but it was linked by another dealer in VT and sold pre-linked in generic unmarked ammo cans. Any original packaging is long separated from the ammo. The Argentine ammo was linked in non-disintegrating links and appeared to have been linked for quite a while but was not in an original container. The tarnish on the brass of the Arg. ammo indicated it had been linked in the non-dis. type links for some time.
DocAV and everyone thanks for the great info. I am always amazed at the incredible amount of knowledge on this forum.


#9

[quote=“Sportclay”]The links on the Czech ammo was mostly M13 type. Some have a 3 letter marking beneath the M13, Is this a mfg code? Other marked links I have in front of me right now are marked; FM3 with a nato mark, RG 76 with nato mark.
DocAV and everyone thanks for the great info. I am always amazed at the incredible amount of knowledge on this forum.[/quote]

The 3 letters beneath the M13 are almost certainly the manufacturers code. FM3 is from Portugal, RG 76 is Radway Green, UK, 1976.

gravelbelly


#10

Nifty information! the letter codes on the m13 are; ALK, IOT. The ALK marked links also have either A, B or C under that. This individual has large and bins barrels filled with various types of links and belts for a large variety of calibers and weapons. I suppose one could collect nothing but these and have an enormous variety of cartridge linking devices. Just what I need another collecting fit.
Gravelbelly, thank you very much for the information.


#11

The Argentine FLB 82 is considered their best by local shooters. It is also their highest 7.62 x 51 production year reaching up to 29 lots, all headstamped.


#12

[quote=“Sportclay”]Nifty information! the letter codes on the m13 are; ALK, IOT. The ALK marked links also have either A, B or C under that. This individual has large and bins barrels filled with various types of links and belts for a large variety of calibers and weapons. I suppose one could collect nothing but these and have an enormous variety of cartridge linking devices. Just what I need another collecting fit.
Gravelbelly, thank you very much for the information.[/quote]

I’d love to spend a few hours rummaging through those bins, like a kid in a sweet shop!

gravelbelly


#13

gravelbelly,
Would you know the meaning or ID of the letter codes on the links? ALK & IOT. ALK also has letters A, B, C.
Thanks