7.62x53R dug in the Ukrane


#1

This week I received an assortment 7.62x53R cases and cartridges, many of which had been dug in the Ukrane. Most of them had headstamp dates from 1904 through 1917. I was able to get a decent picture of some of the impressed headstamps, which I have included here - the raised headstamps have thus far proven a challenge to get a good picture of. I had not seen the B (Cyrillic V) or X headstamps before and am uncertain who made them.


#2

Hi Guy:
The ones with the X were made by Hirtenberger Austria and exported to Czarist Russia before WW1. X is cyrillic for H.
I am not 100% sure but the B looks like it is not Russian but Swiss. Looks the same as Berndorfer Metallwarenfabrik, Berndorf products prior to WW1. Anyone else care to comment on that?
Great pics Guy.


#3

B----Weiss Patronenfabrik


#4

Thanks for the identifications on those two. I had assumed they were Russian-made, but I guess I’m not too surprised that they are not. Considering that Winchester, USC Co and Remington-UMC made a bunch of these for Russia, it would make sense that a lot of the European makers would be producing them also.

Here are examples of most of the raised headstamps, not so legible as the impressed obviously, but as good as I was able to get them after trying with the scanner and then settling for the camera. From the top left, the headstamps are (1) Cyrillic P 04 K 3, (2) T 4, (3) D M 1905, (4) D M 1906, (5) 06 II, (6) Cyrillic P 06 P l, (7) 14 Cyrillic P, (8) Cyrillic KYNOCH 1 17, (9) Cyrillic KYNOCH 17 7.62, (10) Cyrillic L 917, (11) C.17.F.l 7.62, (12) 17 Cyrillic P, (13) 29 Cyrillic EV, and (14) K24 7.62


#5

I recommend to look attentively on K24 7.62. In Russia some think till now that this cartridge doesn’t exist


#6

2moutrage,
What time is it there?

That K24 is one of 5 (I think) British-made cartridges included in the two pictures.


#7

Yes, it is really English cartridge made in 1924. But this cartridge wasn’t made for Russia. I assume what is it manufacture for hunters. I have box for this cartridge



#8

What a great box!


#9

I thought the Russian cartridge was 7.62x54R. ?Is the correct designation really 7,62x53R?


#10

Length of case between 53 and 54 mm. In Russia speak that the cartridge has case in length of 54 mm, and in other countries that 53 mm. Therefore designations 7.62x53R and 7.62x54R mean one cartridge.


#11

The Kynoch-produced Military 7,62 1924 cartridges look like supply to The Baltic States, which had been formed in 1918, and were armed with a mixture of Russian 7,62x54R weaponry, British .303, and German 7,9 equipment. Kynoch supplied quite a lot of both .303 and 7,62Russian in the early 1920s to Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.

It is Possible that the 1924 contract was also supplied to either Finland or Turkey, both of which had large numbers of 7,62 Mosins in the early 20s. Turkey eventually disposed of its Mosins to Finland in the late 1920s, when it standardised on 7,9 calibre. Finland was by 1924 equipped with a full production capacity for 7,62R.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics
Brisbane Australia


#12

The “G.17” round was made by Greenwood & Batley, Leeds, UK in 1917 as part of the British government contracts for Russia.

The “C.17.F.1” was also part of these contracts and was made at Government Cartridge Farctory 1 in 1917 also. The headstamp of these also appears as “G.17.F.1” which has been interpreted as “Government Factory 1”, but may just be a poor headstamp. GCF 1 was at Blackheath in Staffordshire and was managed on behalf of the Government by Birmingham metals and Munitions Ltd.

All four GCFs made 7.62 x 54mm ammo for Russia as well as all the major commercial ammunition makers during this period and at one point fully 65% of all British SAA output was for Russia.

The Kynoch 1924 production was for Finland.

Regards
TonyE


#13

Guy,
I’ve started the enormous task of photographing each and every one of my cartridges and I’ve had similar problems trying to get good headstamp images with both scanner and camera. For a variety of reasons I’ve opted for the camera with a converter lens. If you shine a bright light ACROSS the headstamp it’ll produce a good, clear headstamp.


#14

2moutrage’s Kynoch box tells a story. Interesting to note that the archaic russian term for “7.62”; which was “3-Line”, is printed in parenthesis on the box below “7.62 m/m Russian.” Also, since this ammunition was manufactured after the 1918 merger of Kynoch with Nobel the legend on the box is “Manufactured at the Kynoch Factories. Nobel Indutries LTD. London.” I wondered how Kynoch ammunition was identified after the merger.


#15

Note that the headstamp of no. 13 is 29 over ZV, not EV. It was produced at Simbirsk/Ulyanovsk. Jack


#16

DocAV,
I have other assumption. These cartridges have been never found anywhere except England. We have from the Baltic States 7.62 cartridges К32 and К40, but not К24. Such design of box is characteristic for all cartridges made at this time. Therefore I think that it is impossible to speak that cartridges intended for the Baltic States using only design of box.


#17

George,
I should have opted for 7.62 Russian or Mosin and avoided the 53 vs 54 issue. I have them listed in my collection as 7.62 x 54, but will have to admit that I have changed them from one to the other more than once, and am obviously still not quite sure what to call them.

Thanks DocAV and TonyE for the information on the headstamps, and to Jack for the correction on # 12. I’ll be adding this information to the Excel spreadsheet for my collection.

Jim,
I have experimented around with the lighting for the photos, but had not considered the bright light across the headstamp. What sort of surface and background are you using, and how do you have the head ‘floating’ off to the side like that - that’s impressive.


#18

I’m sorry Guy, it must seem I’m ignoring your question. I shall draft out a couple of paragraphs to cover your points in the next few days but I’ll add it to an earlier thread that was specifically about photographing cartridges.