7.62x54R & 15x101/104

Hi to all,
I have a couple of dumb questions for you,I hope you dont mind.
First is about this 7.62x54R dummy, headstamped 17 48, plain wood bullet and the primer socket seems to be filled with a type of ‘rubber’ which is very deteriorated. So my first dumb question is is this Russian manufactured or a case of another country using Russian cases?

On to my second dumb question re German manufactured Czech ZB vz 60 ammunition (better known to most as 15mm Besa)…it’s well know that when Germany ‘took over’ BRNO that they used modified 151/15 projectiles in cases that were shortened from 104mm to 101mm to accommodate the longer 151/15 projectiles so that they would still chamber in the gun.
Now for the dumb question…with the German manufactured rounds using the ‘norm’ projectiles, ie same(ish) as the Czech and English projectiles, did they use the 104mm case length? so are there two German manufactured,or rather manufactured under German occupation, case lengths?

All the best


7.62Х54Р precisely not Russian and not Soviet, in Russia / USSR “training” cartridges were made in another way.

Thanks AZOV2014,
I hadn’t seen Russian training rounds made this way hence my question, do you have any idea where it was made?


In appearance, I would suggest Bulgaria, but! Bulgarians usually did such things in the case of their own production.

Tony, is this a dummy or is it possibly a live blank with a very corroded primer?

Bulgaria also used foreign cases in onter calibers. So it might be possible they used available stocks of 7.62x54R too.
But here we are depending on observations in Bulgaria.

Yes, the Germans made both case lengths for the 15mm ZB60.
First they kept on making the Czech pattern, likely with readily available components (including brass cases).
Later they switched to steel cases and there kept using Czech projectile designs (from stock or newly made, hard to tell).
And later adapted the German projectile of the MG151.
But here we need to say that the case was not shortened for the longer projectile but for the fact that the original Czech design accomodated the driving band inside the case while the German projectile was not meant to be loaded this way (nor was it really possible), so the case had to be shortened to make room for the driving band being outside the case mouth in order to fit the chamber and the forcing cone.

Hi Jim,
that’s exactly what I thought when I first saw it but it is definitely some kind of soft ‘rubber’, also the wood bullet does turn in the case but is ‘set down’ on some kind of distance piece.

Many thanks EOD,your knowledge is invaluable as always…I’m sure the projectile I have was a newly made one.

Tonly, in my view still hard to tell as the German style markings (15A was the “P” code of “dou”) could have been applied to projectiles having been in stock from original Czechoslovak administrated production.
Here some primary source docs would be helpfull.

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Dear TonyL,

could you check total length of this projectile and write something more about material and finish of it? It looks like made from one piece of steel or treated somehow. Do you have picture of bottom? Anyway very intersting item. Congratulation.

Thank you


188965, the projectile body is made of brass and has a hardened steel core inserted from the back and then crimped.

Alex, 14A was “dou”, 15A was the “P” code of “dov”
An other plant.
You can also see it on the WaA71 Abname.


Willem, thanks, I mixed up 14 and 15…

Hello EOD, thank you for your message. Yes, standard projectile was as you wrote. But this one looks strange to me and probably not standard.

The one here is the standard AP, just the fact that it has stencilled markings is not very usual. The majority was without markings.