7.62x54R


#1

I am hoping for some help. I am trying to find information on the ORIGINAL 7.62x54R It was a jagar round nosed bullet and changed in 1909 to a Spitzer. I cant seem to find a single round or anyone who might be able to help. First I would love to get one. Second and most important I am interested in getting the bullet spec (length, dia should be 7.62 but if not and any lube rings in it.) What I know so far is that I was told it was 210 gr weight. I am also assuming ( a huge mistake no doubt) that the cartridge length is the same as the spitzer rounds.
Any help from the experts would be appreciated
Thanks
Alex


#2

First and foremost, welcome to the forum. The round nose Mosin bullet you are thinking of was the 7.62x54r model of 1891. This was loaded with the round nose bullet and was replaced by the model of 1908 spritzer bullet. I do believe that it is a 210 grain bullet, and it does have the same length. Simo Hayha, the Finnish sniper, was supposed to have used the round nosed Jager bullet. This may also be of help to you: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13604&p=96345&hilit=7.62x54r+shoulder#p96345. Of course, I am no 54r expert but I believe this is all correct.


#3

Russian sources give bullet weight as 13.73 g (211.9 gr) and length as 30.5 mm. Muzzle velocity was 615-620 m/s.

I am not sure of the diameter. For the spitzer bullet (M 1908) it is 7.9 mm (comparable to British .303 and 7.65 Argentine). This is 0.1 mm more than western 7.62 mm calibres (7.8 mm diameter). But it may be that the 1891 round nose originally also had only 7.8 mm diameter. I have never seen a Russian drawing being clear in this respect.

French and Germans inreased the bullet diameter (not the barrel dimensions) slightly when going from round nose to spitzer. On the oher hand, Brits and Americans did not, and it also worked. Due to lack of Russian data, it is unclear to me which path they followed.

Edit: Calibre is not diameter. Calibre is, simply speaking, the diameter of the drill that makes the bore. But afterwards, the grooves (0.10 mm to 0.15 mm deep) are cut into the wall of the bore. So you need a bullet greater than bore diameter, that also can fill out the grooves. Because of this, western 7.62 mm calibres (.300") have a maximum bullet diameter of 7.82 mm (.308").


#4

This could be of help. Both are from Russian docs.

M1891

M1908


#5

Thank you so much. Is it unusual that there are not any grease groves on the 1891. It was a Nickel plated lead round correct?
thank you so much
Alex


#6

Acummins,
Welcome to the forum.
A more informative, or perhaps correct way to describe the bullet would be a Cupro-nickel jacketed, lead cored bullet. Often referred to as a CN-Jacketed bullet as it is usually understood the core is lead.


#7

Alex, as it is a regular FMJ design basically none of these has a grease groove or thelike.
If it would have been a plain lead bullet grease grooves or paper patches would have been common but that was the generation before the jacketed bullets.


#8

EOD, thanks a lot for posting the drawing of the round nose bullet, because it answers a lot of questions.


#9

Several years ago I broke down one of my 7.62 m/m Russian rimmed cartridges with the round nosed bullet to remove the powder and took some notes. The headstamp of this round was (noted clockwise, from 9 o’clock): P 03 F III. Letters were in cyrillic alphabet; rendered here as Latin alphabet. The 210.5 gr. cn jacketed lead bullet had a diameter of .306 in., and the powder charge was 33.5 gr. of irregular tan flake propellant.

Some jacketed bullets do in fact have grease grooves, an example being the version of the 220 gr. U.S. Krag bullet used in the late 1890s before being replaced by the Cole-type bullet. This bullet had three shallow knurled grooves which held a small amount of lubricant.

Jack


#10

Four Krag bullets…all 220 grain or very close…

From left to right: (Dates approximate)
The first “production” bullet, 1894-1896
One groove, 1896-1900
Three grooves, 1900 to 1903, (The one Jack mentions)
The Cole bullet, 1903 to end of production of ball cartridges

Many more can be seen in my book, “Caliber .30 U. S. Army Cartridges Manufactured By Frankford Arsenal”

Randy


#11

Again, the M1891 Rifle and Cartridge followed the “Austrian” system of Bore-Bullet Diameter-Groove Diameter differences…The Bore was 7,62mm (ie, 3 Linie, or 3/10ths of an inch aka .300");
The Bullet diameter, given it is a Cylindrical, concave based, FMJ roundnose, is .306-.308 diameter, and the Grooves are .310-312 diameter, to allow the smaller bullet to (a) Expand its base and engage fully the rifling, and (b) allow to rest of the bullet body lightly be engraved by the rifling, reducing friction ( “Base-Upset-Obturation”…coined by DocAV, 2005).

This system became superfluous with the introduction of Spitzer-bodied FMJ, as there was less surface contact area between Jacket and rifling, so Bullets (as in German practice) went to “Groove diameter” () ie, .323" for the German 1905 7,9mm Patrone “S” and so on ( The Russian M1908 LPS has a 7,92 ( .312") Base, Concave with a 7,82 (.308" )Body above the Cannelure.) Again, Russian Pragmatism…the concave base allowed for “upset” even in shot-out rifles, with enlarged Grooves.

Thanks for the detailed specs on the Projectiles…MY CNC Engineer can download them into his Macxhine, and Make Brass (60/40) Projectiles in both Profiles ( for Movie Dummies and Reloading (oops, prohibited topic!!!)

Doc AV


#12

Randy- Where can people get your book:
“Caliber .30 U. S. Army Cartridges Manufactured By Frankford Arsenal”

Might want to add it on the Buy-Sell-Trade page as well.


#13

Doc: Any thoughts on whether the tan propellant in the 1903 Russian Mosin cartridge is double-based or nitrocellulose? Jack


#14

Hi Acummins,

You are asking very interesting question about bullets to 7.62x54R cartridge for Mosin-Nagant rifle.
Hope my information will be useful for you and other fellows.

The cartridge was adopted in 1891 with round-nose bullet. The blue-print of this bullet is exactly as it was kindly shared by EOD above. It was the bullet with cupro-nickel jacket and lead core with 1.5% of antimony . Length 30.4 mm ( in reality it vary from 30.1 to 30.5 mm) and weight 13.7 gr. The bullet had very distinctive cone hollow at the tail. It was no color-coding for bullet. The muzzle velocity was 620 m/sec
This type of bullet has been producing from 1891 till 1908. At those time the cartridges and bullets were produced at 3 factories in Russia Imperia: in St. Petersburg, in Tula and in Lugansk as of 1895 (now this city is located in Ukraine).
The bullets which have been producing for this round vary only with crimping method which varied from factory to factory and changed within production period. I know 3 types of crimping: no crimp at all (at the beginning of production till 1895), crimp with 2 or with 3 stabs after 1895
One note. During Russia-Japan war in 1905 Russia ordered the 7.62X54R rounds abroad. As far as I know the rounds for Mosin-Nagant rifles were produced by:

  1.  at Polte Factory in Magdeburg, Germany,
    
  2.  at  Deutsche Metall Patronenfabrik factory in Karlsruhe, Germany,
    
  3.  at Fabrique Nationale factory in Herstal, Belgium
    
  4.  at Manfred Weiss Patronenfabrik factory in Viena, Austria (at those times it was Austro-Hungarian Imperia)
    
  5.  at factory in Hirtenberg, , Austria (at those times it was Austro-Hungarian Imperia)
    

I attach picture of round nose bullets for Mosin-Nagant below


#15

In 1908 The Russian Imperia moved from round-nose bullet to pointed bullet. It was again the lead-core bullet in cupro-nickel jacket and with distinctive cone hollow at the tail.
Bullet became shorter (the length varyed from 28.4 to 29.0 mm.), lighter (9.6 gr) and faster(muzzle velocity 820 m/sec). Also the actual diameter of bullet has increased up to 7.9 mm vs. 7.8 mm for bullet type 1891 ( JPeelen is right with his post).
There is a picture illustrating this evolution

There is one comment for blueprint posted by JPeelen.
It was an cannelure evolution for pointed bullet. Starting its adoprion in 1908 the bullet was fixed only with crimp. And crimp was pretty strong and squeezed noticeably the bullet tail as well. Later at WWI period they added 2 or 3 stabs to the crimp. During 1920-1930 the bullet got the knurled canelure and was renamed as L-type bullet which means “Light”. Different plants (their number has significantly increased in Soviet Union after revolution in 1917) produced bullets with different types of knurled canelure. The jacket was made still from cupronickel.
In 1930 they has moved from cupronickel to GMCS jacket. Bullet still had knurled canelure. But this knurled canelure on GMCS jacket lasted only 2 years and was replaced by plain grooved canelure in 1932. Exactly this late type of L bullet is presented at blueprint from EOD above. And this L type has been producing since 1932 till 1952.
The evolution of pointed 7.62 bullet and its canelure is presented at photo.

And one note more.
They had never used grease grooves or any lubricant for FMJ bullets in Russia and later in Soviet Union.
I faced this type of bullet with greased cannelure and they were produced in US like for 30-40 Krag or for .303 British but this technology is not applicable for bullets manufacturing in Russia imperia.

There are some good sites in English about Mosin-Nagant rifle and rounds for this rifle.
7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmoID.htm
mosinnagant.net/i3tro4.asp

Hope. It was useful.


Crimping comparison question
#16

TR3080, thanks for the additional information. The blueprint was posted by EOD.

Edit: TR3080 was so kind to fix his original post.


#17

TR3080: I have a 7.62 m/m cartridge dated 1908 with three stab crimps to retain the bullet, tho a 1913 round is without this form of crimping. After considering the situation I wonder if perhaps cartridges made before WWI still in storage might not have been given this additional crimp. There are other examples of “extra” crimping being added to cartridges without their requiring disassembly; U.S. military auto pistol ammunition produced in the 1930s is an example. Jack


#18

Hi Jack.
If you have 7.62 m/m cartridge dated 1908 with pointed bullet - congratulations ! It is pretty rare cartridge. As majority of cartridges produced in 1908 had round nose bullet. They started to assemble cartridges with pointed bullet only at the last 4 months of 1908. You can see it on the photo I placed in post #18 before. The shells with the same 1908-year headstamp are equipped with different type of bullet. And one pointed bullet has stabs in crimp, another does not.
And my observations tell me the following.
All 3 factories had adopted crimping with stabs of round-nose bullets within 1905-1908 period. I have such cartridges produced at all 3 factories.
And when new pointed bullets had arrived they just reapplied the existing technology of crimping with stabs from old round nose bullet to new pointed one. My samples of cartridges with pointed bullet produced in 1908 ( and one in 1909) have crimping with stab. But stab crimping has disappeared starting 1909. I think they decided that crimping without stabs is easier and cheaper but reliable enough with new bullet what was lighter and shorter. Then crimping with stab appeared only in 1915 for cartridges produced in Tula and St. Petersburg only. I think additional stabs fixing was driven by wide usage of Maxim machine-guns in Russian army during WWI and necessity to fix properly bullet when using in automatic guns. Interesting that Lugansk factory has never started crimping with stabs after it had stopped in 1909.
That is my theory. I have big doubts that cartridges made before WWI would have extra fixing with stabs later. At least no local author has mentioned this in any local publications.
Jack,
would you please share the photo of bullet with crimping and headstamp of cartridge you mentioned.
Thanks in advance
Vladimir


#19

Jack, since Alfred Nobel had begun explosive (NG) manufacture near St.Petersburg (for the Oil Industry at Baku on the Caspian) it is likely that a variant of Nobel’s Balistite (double base, Nitrocellulose-nitroglycerine) was produced for the Russian Imperial Gov’t.

The Powder is Uncoated (no graphite or flame retardants,) and is probably of a similar composition as British Cordite ( also developed by Nobel’s): is the Russian Powder flaked, or short tubular (Maccheroni shaped). The Use of coatings began with Duponts “MR and IMR” type Powders, slower, more progressive, better metering, less barrel flame erosion…all the “early” uncoated powders (Before WW I) were known for Barrel erosion to a greater or lesser degree, and also Fast Burning…Like IMR 4198 or 4227 today). Look at US Pyro DG, etc in the M1906 cartridge Pre-WW I.

One feature not mentioned, is the Pre WW I Imperial use of Case Annealing after final forming (Neck and shoulder), to reduce age/season cracking in finished ammo (due to the wide Climatic ranges between southern Russia and arctic Siberia)…This was brought to the Western world by the Russian Ammo Inspectors at WCC during WWI (See Frost, “The Manufacture of Ammunition”, NRA Publications). The US etc only adopted case annealing when they went over to semi-auto rifle trials, and found as well that Billions of rounds of M1906 made during WW I were cracking at the neck by 1924-5, and had to be relegated to Training only or the DCM/NRA.

Excellent Photos and designs (already saved for Future Bullet making programs).

Doc AV… Spasibo to our Russian & Ukrainian friends.


#20

Doc: Thanks for your thoughts. I had myself thought the propellant seemed more likely to be double-based than single. The grains are square flakes of about the same dimensions as German or French flake rifle powders. Jack