7.63x25 Turkish


#1

This one looks like Turkish. Is it common? Up to now I only saw Turkish 7.92x57.


#2

Great headstamp. It also occurs on both 9mm Luger and 7.65mm Luger and on other calibers I’m sure. Wish I had the 9mm, or even the 7.63M!Lew


#3

Lew - are you assuming it exists in 9mm and 7.65 P or do you know that from having actually seen a specimen? I ask, because it wouldn’t be impossible that it doesn’t. This headstamp dates from about the time of the Korean War (late 1940s, 1950s.) I have a box from 1950 for this headstamp, .380 Auto caliber, that came from Korea along with the Turkish Walther PP copy pistol, its holster and spare magazine.

That particular headstamp is generally tied to the Turkish military, and if they didn’t have any official use of 9mm Para weapons during the time it was used, it would be possible that none with that headstamp was made.

Of course, if they are known in someone’s collection, than question solved and argument ended. Was just bringing up a point.

The “TC” stands for Turkish Republic by the way (T


#4

John, so basically there is no way to tell the year of production?


#5

I have that one, and another similar, both in 7.63. I will post the pic as soon as I can get the stupid technology working again!


#6

Blad - No, there is no way to certainly tell the year it was made. However, as I said, I have a box of .380 auto dated 1950 that has this headstamp. I suspect they used the same headstamp for some time, but still, the MKE headstamp replaced it. If pinned to the wall I would give the general era as 1940 - 1960/ That is nothing more, however, than an educated guess - educated because of the box label I have.

The headstamp appears on many calibers and there are variants of it.


#7

Posted pic above.


#8

From my researches into ASFA and MKE, from 1923 to the 1990s,
the headstamp MKE appeared on ammo made at the major factory of the new Corporation (Makina ve Kemia Endustrisi) from 1950-51 onwards. Before that, the Turkish ammo factories were under “ASFA” and used their individual location names (letters). Maybe for space reason, the ASFA was reduced to “A F”

“A” on its own, in any Turkish circumstance, certainly means “Ankara” now whether it means the corporate headquarters of “AS.FA” or a particular Army Depot/Plant at Ankara ( as opposed to the Plants at Kirikkale, Iskanderun, Istanbul or elsewhere,) I don’t know.

Ammunition made for Pistols: The Turks in WW I had already Mauser C96 Pistols ( 1900 contract) and 7,65 Luger Pistols; They also acquired Browning .380s and 7,65s before and after WW I ( officer’s Pistols); in the 20s and 30s they aquired small numbers of Machine Pistols (Bergmanns, Steyrs, etc) in various calibres…mostly 7,63 and 9mm. At the end of WW II they acquired a LOT of ex-German 9mm equipment ( Interned). Pistol Ammo pre- WW I was supplied by FN, SFM and DWM (both Military use and Civilian sales)

So it would have been reasonable for the ASFA to include Pistol ammo manufacture from the 1920s-30s onwards, in keeping with Ataturk’s Defence Self Sufficiency program.

That the “AF” headstamp ID continued after 1950, I would place a question mark over…possible, but maybe not, given the overall " control" by MKE which took over the functions of “AS-FA”.

A Point to ponder…we need more original boxes and labels from both eras.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.


#9

I think (underscore think) I have seen Turkish soldiers circa Korean War armed with Sten guns, so a need for 9m/m ammo might well have existed in Anatolia. JG


#10

Doc,
So, my two rounds above should be from the 1930s-40s, the “A” from Ankara and the “S” from ?. Correct?


#11

Sorry, The 9mm Luger and 7.65mm Luger are the AFS version of the headstamp. My mistake. Both exist in a collection in Europe.

Lew


#12

Doc - The TC A F A headstamp probably does not exist after 1950. I find that my 1952 .380 Auto box has the MK headstamp.

Jon - your AFA headstamp could be as late as 1950. That is when they stopped using this headstamp. You cannot assume it is pre-WWII, in my opinion, without a box label or other documentation to back it up. I can’t speak for the AFS headstamp.


#13
  • The Turkish mark “AS.FA” is stamped on the pommel of a few bayonets I have in my collection [bayonets manufactured or modified in Turkey]. The mark “AS.FA” stands for “Askari Fabrika(lar)” which ca be translated as “military factory”, a Turkish state arsenal established in the year 1929 not far from Ankara. => It should be known that before 1928, written Turkish was a version of Perso-Arabic script which I think it was called “Ottoman Turkish” script. It was replaced with the Latin alphabet in 1928 by Mustafa Kemal Attaturk and because of this any Turkish object having Arabic markings can be dated as being before 1928. Liviu 05/24/09

#14

Was this pictured cartridge made in Turkey? I have heard second hand info that some of the TC marked stuff in 7.9mm was actually manufactured under contract for Turkey in Czechoslovakia.


#15

The Ending “lar” in Turkish words indicates the Plural, ie," Factories".
Turkish nouns are “declinable” with various endings denoting nominative, possessive, and Plurals

The AS.FA is an indication of the Turkish Government Coiproration (Department) which controlled All the Military Factories in Turkey. Its headquarters were in Ankara (the new capital of Turkey, from about 1922 onwards, after all the Occupation Forces had been convinced to leave Anatolia and particularly Istanbul ( the Caliphate and Sultanate capital, both offices were abolished by 1923.).

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics
brisbane, Australia