7.63x54mm Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer?


#1

Hello,

Does anyone have any information on the 7.63x54mm Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer? I find reference to it, but no details.

Regards,

Rich


#2

Hi Rich

Welcome to the forum

May I inquire as to where you saw this reference?

Thanks
Pete


#3

Hi Pete,

I saw it in Wikipedia under the list of rifle cartridges, then did a google search where it came up in a number of other places.

Rich


#4

Hi Rich
I see the wikipedia does not have a story / reference for this case type. Also the other lists I looked at in doing the same search look as it they were copied from something else.

I haven’t heard of a 7.63x54mm Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer.

The Greek rimless 6.5x54 military rifle cartridge was also chambered in the M-1903 Mannlicher-Schonauer rifle & the M-S is also known as: 6.7x54, 6.7x53.5, 6.5x54 & 6.5x53.5 (bore measurement land to land or groove to groove giving the 6.5 & 6.7 numbers and the case length is between 53 & 54mm so whomever manufactured it called it what they wanted).

So my take on this is a typo that has been repeated. However I have been known to be proven wrong more than once & that’s OK, because I learn (or at least try to).

I’m sure others will square us both away.


#5

I’m still looking for some information on this one and on the 7x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer. Any help out there?


#6

Do you know the reference describing the cartridges with these designations? I understand that these originates from an unsourced listing published on the web and then copied elsewhere, but in my opinion these are likely typos or interpretation mistakes.


#7

Hi Fede,

Thanks, but did you have an honest look to see if there might be something behind them or are you just guessing that they are typos? Maybe, but I hope not.

If it does exist, I have a suspicion that the 7.63x54mm could be the Greek nomenclature for ammunition that they produced for the large quantities of captured Turkish 7.65x53mm Mauser rifles they had on stock. Either that or it was a Greek military experimental round that was never adopted.

Any Greek ammo or military M-S collectors out there?


#8

Rich, is not that I’m not taking your question seriously, but this information originates from an unsourced website and I do not consider this to be a good starting point to start a research on the subject. Anyway, I’m not stating that it is plain wrong, but it looks very dubious to me and this is the reason why I believe that this is a typo or an interpretation mistake.

The 7.65x54 Mauser was made in Greece for decades and it is well known to cartridge collectors, but it was not designated “7.63x54” nor used in Mannlicher-Schönauer rifles.

Regards,

Fede


#9

Wikipedia as a reliable source of info is to be taken with a grain of salt. When two of the most knowledgeable sources of cartridge info in the world haven’t heard of it, I tend to suspect the wiki info as to be unsubstantiated and/or a typo. Or,a new cartridge to research…?


#10

I have more than 2500 cartridges that were measured on my DVD and I as well have never heard of this cartridge and I have some pretty obscure cartridges. As Fede states…Wikipedia is a great general reference, but not always accurate as it relies on input from users which may/may not always be accurate. They are great for correcting it if the errors are pointed out though…There is a possibility it exists but my money would be that people on this forum, would know about it long before Wikipedia.


#11

Thanks for your input. After doing a bit more looking around, I noticed that the 7.62 Russian goes by a number of different nomenclatures, with 7.63x54mm M-N being one of the more common ones. I wonder if the person entering the data just mixed up the M-S with the M-N when they typed it up and everybody else just reproduced this error when they based their data on the original wiki listing.

Anyway, I’ll check a few more sources before giving up, but it does look like a data entry error at this point.


#12

“7.63x54mm M-N being one of the more common ones”

I hate to zing you again, but in about 30 years of collecting metric-military ammunition, I have never seen this designation. The
correct, and most common, caliber designator is “7.62”, not “7.63”.
The perpetuation of bad/incorrect information just leads to confusion further down the line.


#13

I would agree with Jon after my own 50 years of studying ammunition. If “7.63 x 54R” was a designation even used at all, it certainly was not “one of the more common ones.” I don’t recall ever seeing that designation, either.


#14

Try doing an Internet search on 7.63x54 and see what comes up for yourself. Speaking as a yank, just remember to make sure you search the whole Internet and not just the US sites.


#15

Howdy Rich
Doing internet searches, is not how most of us who have been doing this for 30+ years find information. Original catalogs, military technical manuals, other serious authors who research / access original documents, original rounds & boxes are all valid source material.

As such that viewpoint is 100 times more valid than a list someone has cut and pasted.

Not to say that mistakes don’t creep into original documents or well researched books. Every one is human and results / words can be misunderstood perhaps due to language or the author not being able to transport him/herself back into the time when these words were written, in other words looking at 18th century design & technology with an understanding of 21st century design & technology. After you visit a modern factory that makes butter do you know how to milk a cow & build a churn?

I myself, have not seen this 7.63x54R name for the M.N. rifle in any publication. My library is currently about 20 feet long and 9 feet high & books are stacked on other books and perhaps 97% of them deal with only ammunition. The few ‘gun’ books I have have a section devoted to ammunition, and are not books that just gloss over the subject. (I do have a few of those, but they do contain a kernel of information in all the rubbish)

As to your comments of the boxes, below are a few of my boxes in this caliber, you can see the range of names used by the various makers including even the Greek military So it was either 6.7 or 6.5 and 54 or 53mm long (see the right DWM box using the DWM number of 477).

I’d like think I’m a serious MS collector after getting an original M-1903 when I worked in London in the mid-1960’s for the rifle and gunmaker John Wilkes. I currently have around 180 single (box contents not counted) 6.5x54 rounds in my collection. I hope that qualifies me as serious.

So if I may be so bold, as you seem to be a serious student. The IAA has a list of books posted acquire the ones of interest & study them rather than surf. You are doing the right thing by posting here a high number of folk who post here have been collecting and studying ammunition for a long time and for various reasons and some were / are professionals in the gun/ammunition industry. Or folk who live with guns as L.E.O.'s, retired military & such. I myself after being a serious collector since the late1970’s (but started in the early 1950’s) learn something new here almost ever day sometimes two or four or MORE new things.

So keep asking & keep doubting. We are just saying that lists published on the internet are very prone to mistrakes. You need to understand WE have all made lists either want or check lists, & later found typos or mistakes in them (it seems new information is being found almost every day, in dang near every field of study!). As such we are very skeptical of others lists. When one of these lists gets posted it’s very easy for someone to just push a button add some bits & push another button & the mistakes / typos are now duplicated in yet another place. As stated above this happens in books too. So be aware of that factor. (ain’t nothing easy in this business).

Good hunting
Pete


#16

After looking over the internet, I found two mistakes I made. Firstly, I spoke of only the 7.62 x 54R Mosin Nagant cartridge, when the thread was also about a Mannlicher Schönauer cartridge spoken of in the thread with the 7.62 x 54R Russian cartridge. Yes, I found many references to “7.63 x 54R” sometimes mixed with “7.62 x 54R” in the same source. Typographical errors?

My second error is that I should have said I have never seen the designation “7.63 x 54R” used in any SCHOLARLY source. Most of what I found in a google search, when responding to the “7.63” designation, I would hardly call “scholarly.” Reminded me a great deal of the popular gun press, excluding some very good magazines like Handloader and Rifle, and the now defunct Gun Report.

I found no Russian reference to “7.63 x 54R.” I did not pursue the Mannlicher-Schönauer angle for lack of time, discouragement at the lack of quality of the sites I did visit regarding the Russian cartridge, and a lack of my own knowledge about sporting rifle cartridges, with the 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher-Schönauer cartridge being the one with which I am most familiar, since I have owned an MS Carbine in that caliber.

So, each to his own. I will continue to use the official Russian designation for the Mosin Nagant round, as being the one most valid, regardless of what some gun dealers and brand new buyers of a Mosin rifle want to call it. In my 36 years in the firearms retail industry, I found the same sort of designation errors repeated by customers, and sometimes even other dealers and jobbers.


#17

Rich
I’d like to add another factor to this. As you know the Europeans commonly use a bore and case length measurement to officially or in-house name /register a cartridge.

If a cartridge was developed from another case type, say the 7.65x54 Mauser & used in a Greek military rifle with a bore diameter change the Greeks would call it such. perhaps the 7.63x54 however the rifle wold have been a Greek Mann. not a Mann Scho. with the rotary magazine. So if there was a 7.63x54 Greek experimental it would not be with the M-S action. Governments like to use what they have rather than procure new & different rifles to test and develop, it’s just cheaper to use what they have. Screw a newly chambered barrel onto an action you have, rather than buy a new rifle or 10 or 100 new rifles.

If the testing that went on in those days was anything like the testing our modern military does today, hundreds of thousands of rounds would be expended.

In those days perhaps only a few thousand rounds were made to be tested, I don’t know, but still a significant number and as such documented in other than a internet list. The same with the M-N. Did you know when we (the US) made the M-N cartridge ca. WW I for the Russian Government they sent military inspectors to the plants (rifle and ammunition) to inspect and accept or reject the finished product.