7.65 Mannlicher Carbine


The photo of the headstamp isn’t very clear but is H at 12:00, K&C at 6:00 and stars at 3:00 and 9:00.
Thanks for any help.


Looks like a 7.65 Mannlicher Carbine round.


You have a 7,65mm Mannlicher Carbine Experimental.


Can anyone give me more info on this cartridge and the weapon it was used in and country of origin. Thanks.


Yes, your cartridge is the 7.65 Mannlicher Carbine round. While I keep them with my auto pistol cartridge collection, in truth, this was a real carbine, not a pistol. I think the butt-stock detached, but without it, there was nothing to hold on to. It was not like the shoulder stocks that clip on to some pistols. That’s why you won’t usually find this round described in books solely on pistol and revolver ammunition. Here we have heard the word “Experimental” again, the most over-used word in cartridge collecting. I would not classify this as an experimental round at all. There are two headstamps, which is enough to show, in my opinion, that it reached serial production, if in small quantity. Both headstamps are H K&C, but one with headstamp dividing lines and one without. I even have the box for this caliber, which is a tin box (looks almost like lead - very grey and a tendency to oxidize with a white color) with a very plain, and now very fragile, label reading only on the top "25 St


Yes, the box is almost identical to that, except mine has a paper label (in bad shape) wrapped around it, and is paper lined, as well.


Mine is also paper lined with s frail white almost tissue paper. What do you think? Is this a Hirtenberg export box-maybe for China or a Chinese box ?


I am tempted to say it is Austrian. It must be somewhat bigger than my 7.65 Mannlicher Carbine box to hold 100 rounds of .30 Mauser in stripper clips. However, the real truth is I just don’t know. I had always heard (the common wisdom) that these .30 Mauser rounds were made by Hirtenberg. Frankly, they seem to be too good quality for Chinese ammo of the time. However, I have seen virtually no pre-Korean war packaging for Chinese ammunition - I guess I should have said pre-Chinese Communist assumption of power. So, I sure can’t masquerade as an expert on Chinese boxes, or even early Hirtenberg boxes. This is the only tin or let’s say completely metal cartridge box in my collection of about 4000 that I can think of other than my tiny 2.7 Kolibri box.
(I am not counting large GI-type ammo cans). Joseph M


I find it odd that a Chinese arsenal would use an H for a headstamp in that era when they have plenty of their own characters to use.


Well, I understand your point on that, but at least on Korean War vintage ammunition, there is lots of use of Western Alphabet letters on Chinese headstamps. I don’t know why they occasionally do that. A big mystery to me, for example (and, unfortunately, somewhat off the subject here), is that my Chinese military, not commercial, Makarov pistols have “59 SHI” on the left side of the frame above the grip. For some time, I kept wondering what the Western initials S-H-I would stand for on a Chinese pistol. One day, in my head, instead of saying it a letter at a time to myself, I said the whole word, Shi, which is the chinese word for “Type.” Duhhh - type 59. It is weird that they would spell that out in Western letters on a Chinese military pistol, when on the Type 51 and 54 pistols they used the well-known Chinese (same as Japanese) character for type, which I can’t reproduce here. There are plenty of anomolies. For Model Numbers, the numbers are usually in characters. For numbers in serial, like the serial number of a gun, they are virtually always in the Western (Arabic) digits.


Military export gun ?


No, two of my Chinese Makarovs are Police or Export, and have the 59 SHI marking. One has a red grip and one a black grip - otherwise identical - with a shield on the grip and the same arrangement of stars in the shield as on the Chicom flag. The other has red grips but with a 5-point star surrounded by a wreath, and within the star are the chinese characters 81 (read that eight one) which I am told is the founding date (I guess August 1st or January 8th) of the PLA. It is pure Chinese military, although some of those were found in Cambodia on high ranking Khmer Rouge guys. I am told by an ex-PLA member living in the US that the shield and stars is a police symbol, but also could be on export guns, while the other was primarily PLA, even though he admitted that they could show up in other places. It seems the Makarov is not used much in China by the military - only for those either needing a smaller gun, or high ranking officers, and that at least up until four or five years ago, the Type 54 was still pretty much standard (Tokarev). Now, I know they have guns of Chinese design, including those in the new 7.8 (?) mm pistol cartridge - wish they would export some of those cartridges!


I would love to, but I suspect that picture, which I have seen before, is from China, not the USA? Am I wrong?


Alas. The Chinese military police in Haiti have some and the embassy body guards in downtown DC have them but no turning loose yet. The Chinese have no sense of humor when it comes to ammo.


Me too,