7.65 manstopper


#1

This one seems odd to me it came with a lot of British rounds. I have manstopper rounds but this is the first one I have seen for an automatic pistol wouldn’t there be feed problems or am I missing something?



#2

It’s for a single shot humane killer.


#3

Kynoch loaded a lot of different loading in the “Cattle Killer” cartridges, as they are popularly called.
Jim’s term “humane killer” is more accurate. I have never seen one of these guns in .32 Auto caliber, but we had a .38 Special version in our store collection. You actually removed the barrel by a latch and “bayonet lug” sort of attachment to load it. The muzzle was flared out very wide, in a cone shape, and dead flat on the front, so you could press it onto a spot on an injured transit horse, or any other downed animal, where a quick, one shot kill was guaranteed. I assume the .32 devices were similar. There are different shaped lead bullets, often display the huge hollow-point with very thin sides, but also FMJ versions as well, sometimes with the base or bullet colored, which probably indicated the loading. I suppose they are really “auto pistol” rounds, but because of the case type, I collect them and have a good assortment, including one similar to the one pictured. They are, after all, quite interesting.

There was a Webley single-shot, .32 auto caliber pistol, as I recall, resembling very much the early Webley .32 auto, and I would suspect, even though I am not sure, that the .32 humane killer pistols were probably largely based on them.


#4

Your round is described in my files as a .32/57M (Medium) Webley Human Killer cartridge.

From a 1938 catalog:


#5

I would not have figured this one out on my own so thank you gentlemen. Gerald


#6

Fede, As usual, thanks for the great info. The gun is just as I pictured it would be, except pictured is the automatic pistol, not its single-shot counterpart, which surprises me quite a bit. I have never actually seen on of these pistols. The muzzle-end is much like the .38 single shot we had at the store. I had forgotten that the cone was slanted, but our gun was the same. However, ours did not have what appear in the picture of the .32 to be serrations across the face of the cone. It was absolutely smooth.

The list of cartridges available was helpful, but wish their catalog was more definitive on bullet type and how each different load was identified. Maybe if I have time tomorrow, I will photograph the loads I have and add it to this Forum thread.


#7

John
The cattle killer is not an automatic, its a single shot pistol despite appearances.


#8

Vince - That’s interesting, for sure. We had a couple of Webley Single-Shots go thru our store over the years.
We had an Agent in Liverpool, W. Richards Ltd. (NOT Westley Richards). Our Agent with that company was a Mr. Brown. A nice chap I met once when he came to America, as I recall. He looked out for all sorts of stuff for us, and we got some fabulous shipments from them, including many British cartridge boards. I recall that the single-shots looked much like the autos, but did not have a magazine or magazine catch, which show prominently in the
artists rendition of the Humane Killer picture on the catalog page Fede sent.

Good drawings are often better than photographs, but only when they are done precisely as the item really appears.

Thanks for the added information.


#9

The pistol in the drawing also says “AUTOMATIC PISTOL” on it.


#10

O.K. guys. I just did what I should have done originally, but I have been in and out of the house and very busy.
I researched this in my library, where I have several excellent books on Webley and Scott handguns.

The correct answer is … The drawing, vince’s answer, and Falcon’s observation are all correct. The .32 Webley Humane Killer 7.65 mm Pistols were primarily repurchased .32 auto pistols, bought back by the factory and converted to single-shot pistols. I will not tell the long story - too long for here - but the magazine was filled with a wood block so it held only one round. It was possible to load two rounds only by removing the magazine while a live round was in the chamber and replacing it in the magazine with another round. The pistol did not function as a repeater due to gas escape holes in the muzzle fixture. To fire a second shot from the magazine, one had to cock the slide to eject the empty case from the first shot and load the second, and return the safety, which automatically went on, back to the fire position.

The guns were made, or perhaps “delivered” would be more accurate, from 1920 until late 1939.

The first lead bullets did not work well - these are the ones that are cylindrical with a huge hollow-point and very thin “walls” at the mouth. They deformed so badly feeding from the magazine that they jammed the pistol (slide failures to close). The bullet shape was changed to a more coventional ogival shape.

Color coding was as follows:

.32-98 (second figure is weight of bullet) White gave a velocity of 570 fps; .32-98 Blue was 730 fps; .32-98 Red
had a MV of 930 fps. White denoted suitability for use to put down small animals like cats, small dogs, lambs, etc. Blue was for medium size animals like dogs, sheep, pigs, etc. Red was for all large animals such as horses, cattle, boars and the like. The earliest rounds had the primers painted with the appropriate color, but this caused a paint buildup on the breech face that interfered with the function of the firing pin, so the colors changed to the tips. Unexplained in my major source for this information are those rounds with both colored primers and tip colors.

I made an error in my original posting, which has now been edited to remove it. I mentioned I had humane killer 7.65s with FMJ bullets. I was hallucinating, a condition that seems to increase with age. All my rounds have lead bullets (a couple of pictures of them will get posted once I get them into the computer and off to Joe Jones for posting here. It is unlikely that any HK projectiles were jacketed.

Rounds are found headstamped KYNOCH 7.65, KYNOCH 7.65m/m; and KYNOCH .32 AUTO. Some have ICI primer markings.

Reference: Webley & Scott Automatic Pistols, by Gordon Bruce, pages 278 - 281.


#11

Just a footnote, those cattle killers are still in use today with the British Army. Most of the horses you see in things like Royal weddings and similar pagentry will have their days ended with one.


#12

I’m not too sure you’re correct there Vince. Many years ago as part of a training course I had to go to the Royal Army Ordnance Corps abatoir at Aldershot and witnessed horses being shot - not a pleasant experience!
I wasn’t particularly interested in the weapon being used but it was explained to us that it was essentially a captive bolt powered by a blank cartridge.


#13


Here are eleven variations of the Kynoch “Humane Killer” 7.65 m/m Browning (.32 Auto) caliber cartridges. The first three from
the left have red tips AND red primer seals. The fourth round has no color markings. The fifth round has a red seal, very worn,
but no tip color. The middle cartridge (6th from Left) has a white primer seal and a white tip, although the tip color is scant and
does not show up well in the picture. The seventh round has a white primer seal, but no tip color. The eighth round has a blue
tip and a blue primer. The ninth and tenth rounds have no seals and the eleventh is a factory dummy, with no seals and no
primer. Six of the cartridges have three-stab neck crimps. The others do not.

This picture shows the heads of the cartridges and the colored seals.

Photographs by and from the collection of John Moss


#14

John, wonderful collection!

This cartridge is still produced under the Kynoch brand and loadings are all designated .32/85 C K (Cattle Killer):

  • Lead: large and medium sized animals
  • Lead Hollow Point: small animals ie dogs, pigs etc
  • Full Metal Jacket: large bulls or any other large or heavy animal

These are meant to be used in a single shot Webley Humane Pistol (break open) and an Accles & Shelvoke Humane Pistol (modified S&W revolver).


#15

Fede - I had no idea that these were still offered. I didn’t think that the current Kynoch had any pistol-type cartridges. Wish there was some way to get some of the loadings. From England, though, impossible for me.


#16

The captions are now with the correct pictures for them.

By the way, I would, for future reference, change the title of the thread from “7.65 Manstopper” to “7.65 Kynoch Humane Killer cartridges.” Since there are no .32 auto rounds using the old “manstopper designation,” the current title is pretty useless for searching it later. Nothing at all wrong with it in light of the original posting, since the party who posted it was not familiar with the loadings. So, no criticism intended of the original title of the thead.
Just could be more indicative of the true content of the thread now.


#17

I have to admit I have sort of a morbid fascination for these devices, and have seen several of them. At one time, long ago, I owned a specially modified Remington .22 bolt-action single-shot rifle (which had an aluminum stock) which had been extensively used in a local slaughterhouse. It was definitely a factory-made item, not a home-made effort. I also had some Remington “Safe Stun” (or maybe “Stun Safe”) .22 LR ammo that had been used in it that had, I think, a compacted iron bullet. I remember the Remington boxes for this stuff said something to the effect of “For humane shooting of livestock”

I live part-time at what had been from the late 1850’s until 1946 a U. S. Cavalry fort In West Texas, which is still largely intact. I understand there were, at one time, up to 3-4,000 horses in residence there at once, with extensive stables. This was because each cavalryman had at least three horses, plus there were many more for drawing supply wagons, etc. Now, with all these horses, there had to be frequent horse executions (maybe not so humane) as a result of illness, broken limbs, old age, etc., yet I have never spoken with any of the local historical types that knew anything about how this was done and what was done with the remains. I assume they were shot and either eaten (doubtful, but who knows?), or pulled out away from the fort and left for the vultures to clean up (they are VERY efficient at that job in this part of the world). I am sure there had to be a U. S. Cavalry regulation for how this was to be carried out (means of killing, with what, disposal of the remains, etc.) and if anyone knows about that, please pass it on to me. I equally wonder what they did with the massive amount of manure generated.


#18

Jim (Norfolk) - I think in the main, you are correct. I will quote “The Webley Story,” by William Chipchase Dowell, Page 263, “Horse-Killer Cartridge:”

“The need for such ammunition is now rather limited but it is, nevertheless, still a necessary Service store since the trade-pattern “'Cash” captive-bolt humane killer (approved for Land Service use on 16th September 1938, and operated by a .22 rimfire blank cartridge loaded with 2 grains of propellant) is officially restricted in use to the slaughter of animals OTHER THAN horses and mules.”

It seems in 1938, just a year before the .32 humane killer based on the Webley Auto was no longer being delivered, that the Cash System captive-bolt gun was NOT approved for destruction of horses or mules. That was still restricted to the "Cartridge, Ball, .310 inch, Mark I.Z. However, it is likely that later on, the cash captive bolt gun was used for horses and mules as well.

Interesting subject, with many more cartridge types than just the .32 auto humane killers. Still more to know about this group of rounds, I am positive.


#19

I’m not too sure you’re correct there Vince. Many years ago as part of a training course I had to go to the Royal Army Ordnance Corps abatoir at Aldershot and witnessed horses being shot - not a pleasant experience!
I wasn’t particularly interested in the weapon being used but it was explained to us that it was essentially a captive bolt powered by a blank cartridge.[/quote]
Jim
My friend (also a Jim) was a Warrent Officer in The Royal Horse Artillery based at St Johns Wood Barracks. As you know they do all the ceremonial gun salutes in London plus a lot of other ceremonial duties in London. They also exercise the horses in Hyde park every morning which involves riding the horses down through the streets to the Park every morning at about 6am.

He describes having to carry every day “a funny little .32 automatic pistol” which I took to be a Webley against the possibility of any of the horses getting injured. His description was a bit more detailed than that and fitted John’s description for loading it.

That was the basis of my information. He also had the job of shooting several of the horses back at the Barracks which he described as the worst thing he had to do in the army. This from an ex SAS man with a long history in the Regiment.


#20

Since evidently Kynoch still makes HK Loads for the .32 Auto case type, it is quite possible that both types, the Webley converted automatics and the Cash-system captive-bolt humane killers may have been in service simultaneously. I think there is a good possiblity that everyone is correct in this thread, as it seems now, also, that FMJ HK loads in .32 have been made, although I don’t have any of them as I had thought I had.

The relatively little use these pistols would see compared to a tactical pistol or civilian target pistol would, since they are high-quality British manufacture, make them last almost indefinitely if cared for and not stolen out of stores. There would be no real reason for not continuing with their use as long as they do their job humanely and efficiently.