7.65 mm M.A. by USCCo


#1

Just wanted to share a picture of a very rare 7.65 mm Marina Argentina made by USCCo:

Anybody knows how many examples of this headstamp are known in the States?


#2

From a very old Email from BA some years ago ( I still have it in my Hotmail Archive) a collector in BA gave me a lot of info on the 7,65x61 MA cartridge, including that whilst Winchester made the majority of the orders from 1914 to the early 1920s, some inital order/s were made by both Remington and USCCo. The USCco. ones were the smallest order.

It is possible that the only source of USCCo MA cartridges is Argentina…They ( any headstamp) have never shown up in any Milsurp sales of ammo of the 1950s-60s etc from the Usual Suspects advertising in G&A, AR, or other wide selling US Gun Journals…I have a wide spread of these magazines from the 1930s (AR) to the 1950s and 60s ( G&A, Guns, etc) up to the present. Never have I seem mention of 7,65MA or 7,65x61 Argentine or similar ( Lots of other ammo, including .276 Pedersen and 7mm Venezuelan FN Liviano, and other “strange/old” ammo, but no MA.

The cartridge has always intrigued me…I have made some “replica” cases from .30 cal cases ( trimmed and shoulder re-formed), and hope to convert one of the “Rechambered” M1909 Rifles ( Importer-done to .30/06 in the US) to properly chamber and fire my version of the 7,65MA cartridge.

After all, the idea in 1912-13, was to develop an Argentine Match cartridge that would compare with the M1906 .30 cal being used by the US in the Pan-American competitions.
From my observations of Photos of MA cartridges, it seems that the cartridge is simply a .30/06 Draw, with the neck and shoulder matching the design of the 7,65 Arg. case in profile, hence the shorter neck. My conversion of the .30 case followed these lines.

It will take me time to find the original Email from the BA collector ( a member of AACAM?)…over 135 pages of Emails still to “cull” for useless ones.

Regards,
Saludos,
Doc AV


#3

DocAV, thanks for your comments. In 2006 the AACAM also ordered FLB less than 160 conmemorative dummy cartridges for our 40th anniversary.

Maybe this is a good time to point out that the published history of this cartridge is almost 100% wrong and since the publication of a brief paragraph in “Centerfire American Rifle Cartridges 1892-1963” by Ray Bearse it has being expanded and exagerated to the present form without any single piece of evidence.

To make the story short:

  • It was conceived as an improved service cartridge to be adopted by the Argentine Navy in modified Mauser Model 1891 rifles and later also Model 1909. It was also used in navy artillery tubes for economic shooting practice.
  • It was never designed as a match cartridge (although it was inspired by the deficiencies of the 7.65 mm Mauser cartridge with 154 gr bullet at certain shooting distances and conditions after Camp Perry 1913). The “Match” designation is wrong and was never used, nor by Argentina, Winchester, USCCo or DuPont.
  • It was not designed by Winchester but by Captain Casey of DuPont who proposed the Argentine Naval Commision a design based on a .30-06 case shortened and loaded with a 7.65 mm 180 gr bullet (prototype cartridges were made from FA cases).
  • In 1915 it was decided to abandon this design and to purchase 180 gr bullets and DuPont Military #15 powder to be loaded in German DWM 7.65 mm Mauser cases ready available.

#4

There have been some Replicas made in the last couple of years.


#5

Hello Simon, who made your replica? I remember that Stephen Fuller had planned some replicas years ago but I’ve never seen one. I’m aware of another replica made in South Africa but it has a brass primer.


#6

Sorry Fede, but I don’t know who made it.


#7

I have one of the South African replicas with the brass primer. I would guess that the one with the nickel primer was made by the same maker. As the headstamp looks exactly like mine including the spacing between the “W” and the “period” which is wide on mine also. That is unless they are all like that even the originals, but I don’t think they are.
Zac


#8

Zac, thanks, you are right, both are variations of the same replica. I don’t understand why making a replica of a cartridge that is not that rare. These modern cartridges aren’t cheap either and I don’t like that these are not identified as replicas. In dishonest hands these could be sold as originals to new collectors.

These are all three “original” headstamps known to collectors plus a conmemorative dummy made by Fábrica Militar Fray Luis Beltrán (I’m happy to say that I have personally designed the last one!):


#9

I have a cartridge in my collection that I’ve assumed was a match round for, probably, Argentina. It is a standard 7.65 m/m Mauser case with the headstamp U.S.C.Co. above and 7.65 M-M below. The bullet is a GM spitzer loaded to an overall length of 78 m/m. The .3105 in. bullet is uncrimped and lacks a cannelure. The complete cartridge weighs 393 gr. (25.5 g.); this suggests to me the bullet is about 180 gr. and most likely flat-based. There was mention in The American Rifleman in a 1955 issue that USC had produced match ammunition in 7.65 m/m for Argentina in, at least, 1913. Is this an example? Jack


#10

Jack,
Could you post pics of the ctge. and the headstamp, thanks in advance.


#11

DGFM: Unfortunately, I don’t have the capability of posting images. Jack


#12

Jack, yes, it is the 7.65 x 53 mm Mauser 300 meter match cartridge that won the Argentine 1913 ammunition tests (against UMC cartridges). Loaded lenght should be 3.083-3.084" (78.30-78.33 mm).

Note: The USCCo cartridges in fact won the 1000 yards tests and the UMC the 600 yards test. The first ones where ordered for Camp Perry and the last ones for Pan American and International matches.


#13

Jack, sorry, I’ve checked my files and a 180 gr. 1913 match cartridge should have a cu-ni jacket and weighs 401 gr. (primed case: 177 gr. + powder charge: 44 gr. + bullet: 180 gr.). I’ll try to find out what you have because I’m not sure if it is a standard 154 gr. load.


#14

We had a draw-piece by U.S.C.Co. in our sale 11 lot 435.

Part of the write-up was:
7.65x61 Marina Argentina draw piece by the United States Cartridge Co. has an unfinished primer pocket. We note that while the rim trimming or the rim undercut is not completed, or perhaps even started and the shoulder is starting to show form. 2.445” / 62.11 mm long.



#15

Pete, that’s a truly amazing draw piece! Thank you very much for sharing a high quality picture.


#16

Fede: I’ll re-examine my cartridge in natural sunlight. My notebook reads “gilding metal” and it looked so the other night, despite the oddity of that material (unplated) for a bullet jacket pre-1914. Some of the American .30-40 Krag cartridges made during WW.I have brassy-looking bullets, so maybe that is what’s going on here. I’m certain that the bullet is distinctly heavier than the 154 gr. version. Thanks for your interest. Jack


#17

I have an 8 m/m Danish Krag cartridge loaded by Remington in 1917 that has a bullet jacket made from cupro-nickel (as it must be) that has a distinct yellow cast like the USC round above. I’ll mark my notes to indicate the cartridge appears to be a target load for Argentina, tho the total weight is below the recorded standard. Jack


#18

I believe this would be the cartridge Jack described…

Randy


#19

Hello Randy, what is the overall lenght and weight?


#20

Hi, Fede…

Weight : 397.8 grains, Overall length : 3.080 inch

Randy